This is highly experimental and I post this full-well knowing it could go nowhere, or quickly downhill... but for the sake of exploration into a topic that threatened to hijack a previous thread, and apparently bears several strong opinions:
What are your thoughts on survival and divine intervention? Setting aside different ideas of theology or interpretations of spirituality... How much weight and what kind, do you give to spirituality, to divination, to the miraculous?
The guy who survives a failure to deploy on his parachute.... thousands of feet to the earth and survives... Luck? is there science or math or physics that can explain it?
We could get LOST in anecdotes about things which seem unexplainable except by some sort of intervention beyond what we would consider 'natural' or within any plausible statistical likelihood.
But not just those mysteries.... What do you think of the role of spirituality plays in a survival scenario? Do you think prayer has any bearing or effect on circumstance? To protect, or provide?
How about meditation?
What do you see as valuable in maintaining some of these abstract aspects of humanity during a crisis? Morals, religion, spirituality, emotional ties... They all relate to one another, though some more loosely than others. Just like physical stamina or conditioning... Or knowledge and skills, This whole other aspect of human experience must be there for a reason. What do you think of it's uses, value, or lack thereof when all the chips are down? does it make a difference or is that whole aspect of people's lives just a superfluous fabrication of tradition? Are we better off without it? what are we without it? why would we need it? does it help us at all?
What are your thoughts on survival and divine intervention? Setting aside different ideas of theology or interpretations of spirituality... How much weight and what kind, do you give to spirituality, to divination, to the miraculous?
The guy who survives a failure to deploy on his parachute.... thousands of feet to the earth and survives... Luck? is there science or math or physics that can explain it?
We could get LOST in anecdotes about things which seem unexplainable except by some sort of intervention beyond what we would consider 'natural' or within any plausible statistical likelihood.
But not just those mysteries.... What do you think of the role of spirituality plays in a survival scenario? Do you think prayer has any bearing or effect on circumstance? To protect, or provide?
How about meditation?
What do you see as valuable in maintaining some of these abstract aspects of humanity during a crisis? Morals, religion, spirituality, emotional ties... They all relate to one another, though some more loosely than others. Just like physical stamina or conditioning... Or knowledge and skills, This whole other aspect of human experience must be there for a reason. What do you think of it's uses, value, or lack thereof when all the chips are down? does it make a difference or is that whole aspect of people's lives just a superfluous fabrication of tradition? Are we better off without it? what are we without it? why would we need it? does it help us at all?
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Re: Sticky subject
Mon, January 21, 2008 - 7:58 PMAs I've said before, I'm not a religious person, but I could see how prayer or meditation could calm someone enough to do what needs doing. If someone's faith gives them strength, then they should run with that, so long as they're not using faith as an excuse for inaction or helplessness. -
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Mon, January 21, 2008 - 10:27 PMAgreed. I posed the same question to my class this evening. Most feel that faith is important in a survival situation if it leads to positive actions, rather than hopeful resignation.
We have a wide range of beliefs in the class, but most said they would use prayer or meditation to avoid panic and to help them focus on solutions.
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Mon, January 21, 2008 - 11:46 PMYears ago I was taking tab to remote village Papu Newguinea it Rained for 9 days non-stop mountain sides where like mush, every blood sucker wanted a bit of me. landslides with rock and mud on 30degree slopes some times stepper even the Fuzzy tracker (name of the locals )He looked at me and the rest of the party with eyes of wounded dog which is how I felt also. Then it came like a bulldozer flat chat a wall of grey shit waist high the horror was fall on in my head. My feet suck into the ground as I tried to run, realization kick in that I could go nowhere I lashed para cord round my pack stuffed it between two trees each of all 6 inches thick and stuffed myself in to the roots a of a larger tree it seemed to take forever to get this task done. I bit down on the cord holding it with both hands. Then bang I closed my eyes in that split second before my eyes closed I saw this shroud of a blacky grey sheet fly over my head. I had one thing in my head, Dont be sorry just hold on , as the rock and mud hit me. I pushed my legs against another tree root pushing head against tree root in front of me to protect my head, my ears filled with rubbish body lifted and then a weight pushed hard on to my head. when I felt no more movement I started to move slowly, but I new that I would need air soon.something was on top of me then it moved. I did what was like a push up and the thing on top of me was the fuzzy Tracker it was hard to make out his form at first because everything the same colour.
No one was hurt, but it took two days to get the fibres of para cord from between my teeth. I asked the Fuzzy if he saw Huey AKA( the man up stairs) he just laughed and pointed at me as if to ask "did you". I said " No because you where fucken on top of me holding my bloodie rope".
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Unsu...
Re: Sticky subject
Tue, January 22, 2008 - 9:18 AMI think I pissed a few people off in the TaiChi tribe when I said I don't think there's anything spiritual about meditation. Physiologically speaking, there's no difference between meditation and self-hypnosis. For the sake of not having to re-write the same thing again, I'm just going to paste what I said:
" This may surprise you, but there isn't much difference (if any) between meditation and self-hypnosis. In both states, your mind drops from the active intelligence ranges of the alpha and beta waves (8-12+ Hz) into the theta range (4-8 Hz). Theta waves have been shown to promote complex behaviors (learning, memory, creativity, etc.), so in reality, it isn't the meditation or taoism that benefits you, it's just the relaxed state initiating the theta wave pattern. When you're hypnotized, you're much more open to suggestion-- if you're actively thinking about things like "action through inaction" or the nature of all things around you, these ideas are going to seep into your subconscious. It's fundamentally the same approach that hypnotherapists take when helping people break bad habits like nail biting or smoking. "
Prayer, on the other hand, is spiritual and not physical because it is communication with God. It isn't the act of prayer that is important, it is the relationship. It doesn't matter if you bow your head, kneel on a rug, wear a hat, chant, dance, or flog yourself with a bag of oranges-- it is acknowledging God's power an authority and coming to him with an open heart that gives prayer power. God isn't a Swiss army knife you can take out of your pocket whenever you need a little help. Neglecting your relationship with God and only turning to him when you are in trouble is selfish behavior, trying to use God for your own gain. It should be the opposite-- allowing God to use you for his purposes. Until prayer is approached in the proper manner, it is a waste of time. If you're starving in the middle of the woods and pray, "God, if you send me a nice juicy steak right now, I promise I'll go to Church every Sunday from now on...", your heart is not in the right place to begin with because you are trying to bargain with the Almighty.
So, yeah, I think it is important and we as humans need it... it's a core part of our existence. But whipping out the ol' prayer book when the chips are down with no real faith that God is listening is no more useful than a pouch of dehydrated water. -
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Tue, January 22, 2008 - 10:10 AMChad I think your posting hits the nail on the head. Though I think meditation can be a "spiritual" act IF it was taught to be one. For my friends and students who practice Zen (and I don't pretend to understand it) meditation IS prayer. But on a whole I agree that meditation is a way to alter the concious state, and not necessarily a connection with God.
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Tue, January 22, 2008 - 10:39 AMBased on my own experiences, the existence of God is something I would never deny, nor the existence of the human 'spirit' etc. Setting that groundlayer, I think prayer has many purposes in a survial situation.
I do believe it can have a calming, meditative, sheerly physiological aspect which is often the very first critical phase, or step, to surviving a disaster. To stay calm, to think clearly, to have the emotional fortitude to set aside the psychological maelstrom some people might experience after a plane crash or losing their home, and just deal with the situation at hand.
I also believe, largely from experience, that there is real power in prayer and a relationship with God. I would go into experiences both personal and closely-trusted vicarious to explain myself, but these things seem a bit too sacred to just throw out onto the internet. But I've seen prayer, or the presence of a very close relationship to god, provide inspiration, warning, enlightenment, protection, healing etc. In ways that cannot otherwise be explained. Ways and circumstances which are far above and beyond a placebo or coincidence. There is a real power in God and it does not favor a particular religion or dogmatic view.
In a survival situation? A person who keeps that prayerful mindset (and equally importantly, has kept that mindset as much as they can, throughout their life) will at the very least, be able to operate calmly and effectively to get done what they need to do. But unlike meditation, it has the potential to go well above and beyond that small, immediate psychological aspect. To me, it's just as important as maintaining the proper knowledge and training, or as well of a physical condition as one can manage.
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Tue, January 22, 2008 - 12:08 PMThere was terrible flooding in Louisiana. There was a 60 year old deacon of the largest church in the area that was the most devote and faith filled man any of the church members ever knew. His home was in the heart of the flood area. One of the church members pulled up in his large SUV with a large trailer towed behind to find the decon sitting on the porch watch the torrential rain falling, seemingly unconcerned. "Deacon let's load all your most precious things into the trailor and get you out of here before the flood gets worse.", screamed the man over the driving rain. The deacon calmly replied, "You just take care of your own. The Lord will save me."
As the flood waters got up to his porch another church member pulled up in a boat and called for the Deacon to get in and he'd take him to safety. "Don't concern yourself. The Lord will safe me." So seeing other needing help the man in the boat went to help them.
The flood continued and the deacon climbed up on his roof and waited and called upon the Lord. "Lord I streadfastly KNOW you not let this flood kill your humble servent."
Just then a helicopter flew over his roof, came back and hovered and lowered a line with harness for the deacon. He waved them off yelling "The Lord will save me. In this I have NO DOUBT. Quit tempting me with rescue from Earthly sources." The helicopter pilot seeing others in the distance needing help decided not to argue and save who he could.
The flood continued un abated and the deacon was swept away in the waters and was drowned.
He went to Heaven and was sorrowful and even a little cross. God looked down at him and asked, "What troubles you my old friend?"
"well sir it is just that I told everyone that would listen you would save me from that flood and I still died. I mean I'm happy to be here but I feel I had more work to do for you on Earth."
"You feel I let you down? But I sent a friend in a SUV, a friend in a boat and finally the State Police in a helicopter." -
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Wed, January 23, 2008 - 12:52 PMCurtiss stole my joke. I've told that one a few times in various tribes.
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Fri, January 25, 2008 - 10:49 AM"You feel I let you down? But I sent a friend in a SUV, a friend in a boat and finally the State Police in a helicopter."
that says it all.
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Tue, January 22, 2008 - 1:21 PMIn any good survival book or class they mention the Rule of Threes; for those who haven't come across this yet:
You can survive:
- three minutes without air
- three hours without shelter
- three days without water
- three weeks without food
- three months without love
It seems that in extended survival scenarios, many people who manage to take care of shelter, water, and food well enough to sustain themselves indefinitely tend to lose their will to keep applying that much effort unless they feel they have something to live for, a family, spouse, or other loved ones waiting for them back home.
So while it might seem esoteric to discuss spirituality in a survival context, even the experts agree that's a strong component. For one person it may be God, for another their wife, but whatever form it may take for different people, some connection to something outside yourself seems essential for long-term survival. -
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Unsu...
Re: Sticky subject
Tue, January 22, 2008 - 1:27 PMOkay... I can't resist.
3 hours without shelter... under what conditions? And 3 months without love? What does that even mean? Is my love for scalloped potatoes sufficient to keep me going? -
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Re: Sticky subject
Tue, January 22, 2008 - 4:08 PMScroll down to "Rule of Threes":
www.survival.com/bookch1a.htm -
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Unsu...
Re: Sticky subject
Tue, January 22, 2008 - 4:36 PMAfter reading their definitions, I guess I can where they're coming from. I still think their values for love and shelter are subjective (just trying to keep the incremental pattern of 3, I guess), but thanks for the link none-the-less.
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Tue, January 22, 2008 - 5:02 PMThe rule of 3s, where we teach it (Boulder Outdoor Survival School), begins in seconds - 3 seconds to "Don't Panic" (even Douglas Adams knows that). Three seconds to keep your head, three minutes to address life-threatening injuries (ABCs type stuff), three hours to find shelter, three days to find water, three weeks for food, three months for companionship.
But it all starts with those first three seconds. Any faith system that keeps a person from panicking (and doing something stupid to make things worse) in those first few seconds *is* a godsend.
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Thu, January 24, 2008 - 8:48 AMYou can't really prove that God intervenes to save someone in a horrible situation but you can't prove that he dont either. I guess they call it faith cause there's no real proof of the man upstair's. All we have to go by is a book that is a gazillion year's old. I don't push my faith on anyone but I get tired of some political radical's mocking it and trying to do away with it because their veiw's dont win at the ballot box. Beleiving a higher power can give a person the strength to overcome tough obstacles, will definately give a person confidence in a survival situation. God gives people free will and I'll never deny God's existence because I beleive everything that is here, he created, I'm just passing through. In a survival situation you could say God provides the plant's and animal's to harvest and gave us the brain's to learn to do it. If we didnt take the time to learn we shouldnt blame God when we die. I guess we wont have any solid evidence of god's existence unless a biblical apocalypse suddenly start's, or we die.
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Mon, April 28, 2008 - 12:10 PMWell without going into details which would probably bore some here, I believe in Devine Intervention. I believe God gave us brains and common sense for a reason too though.