Constructive Comments Requested

topic posted Sat, January 19, 2008 - 9:47 PM by  chuck
Dear Friends (some of you really are my friends)
As some of you know, I teach herbalism, but I also teach herbal survival to classes in my home and in some universities at their request.
I will be giving a lecture on the topic very soon, and I decided to give a preamble on the survival mindset. This is what I came up with, and I would be gratefully for comments on it. Please remember this is just a short intro to several hours of teaching. Thanks for you help.
Doc


Mindset for Survival

First we decide to survive. It may be a conscious or unconscious decision, but it is a decision. Once it is made the question of “how” comes into play. A hostage needs a different set of skills to survive than a person trapped on raft at sea. A soldier alone and separated from his unit behind enemy lines will have training a sole survivor of a plane crash in the high Sierra will not possess. A hiker lost in the wilderness may only need to survive long enough for a Search and Rescue team to find them, while a person who has survived a catastrophic disaster may realize that help might be weeks away.
Yet these individuals will have on thing in common. A survival mindset.
The mindset is not the decision to continue living; rather it is the combination of determination and experience that will make survival a possibility. It varies from person to person. It includes lines of morality which may or may not be elastic. A pacifist parent might kill an attacker who threatens their child. A vegan may bend to killing a small animal for sustenance. A caspar milquetoast personality can suddenly find a fortitude of physical and emotional strength they never imagined.
Religious or spiritual beliefs can help or hinder the mindset. It can bring hope or comfort in dark moments, or it can lead the person to believe that a deity of some sort will send rescue. This can dangerous when the situation requires only personal effort to survive. (Cynics may say that god helps those who help themselves, but in my experience god hasn’t helped anyone, so I must only rely on myself or those around me.)
The survival mindset is helped by knowledge, both practical and theoretical. Training in first aid, wilderness first aid, and outdoor survival is a practical consideration for people who enjoy the outdoors. Self defense and predator awareness (human predators at least) is a must for women and children in most urban settings. SERE classes can benefit employees of multi-national corporations as well as soldiers.
Today it is my firm hope you will take these lesson on herbal survival as part of your mindset. Plants can be utilized for food and medicines during the most dire of circumstances. But they can only be useful IF you make the decision to decide and have the mindset to do so.
So students…make your decisions NOW…and let us get started.

posted by:
chuck
SF Bay Area
  • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

    Sat, January 19, 2008 - 9:59 PM
    I would leave the God part out. You can't be sure God hasnt ever helped anybody. That might offend some Christian's that might be in the group. Other than that, I liked it.
    • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

      Sat, January 19, 2008 - 11:01 PM
      Nope...that stays in. But I appreciate your comments. And in my heart I don't care who I offend (thought I'm not going out of my way to do so)if I can teach them how to survive with plants. Alot of comments here I find offensive but I let it roll off, as I care more about learning about survival than getting into a political scrap. Thanks though.
      • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

        Sun, January 20, 2008 - 12:26 AM
        It is true that one can' t tell how anyone ( including ones self ) will react until in a life or death situation and the resultant chaos . Everyone reacts differently to different triggers .
        One is more likely to find plants to eat than animals , and they only need be gathered not chased !
      • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

        Sun, January 20, 2008 - 8:38 AM
        Most christians know God isnt going to drop a can of chunky soup and a can opener in their lap when theyre hungry. I just don't see where it's necessary to even bring up God in a survival class. If they do think God is going to throw food at them in a survival situation then they are probably unteachable in the first place. If I attended a class that spoke of God in a negative way I would leave. I know San Fran is open minded christian hater's but out here you may not have any student's left after that introduction. I guess it really depend's on the part of the country your in as to what's offensive. I'm sorry, I just dont understand how offending Cristians has anything to do with teaching survival. I'm going to leave it alone now.
        • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

          Sun, January 20, 2008 - 8:53 AM
          Again Brent, all good points. But I will be in San Francisco and most of my audience will be liberals, but a good many are religious though not necessarily all Christian. It's not a statement I would make in the Bible belt or in a church lecture hall. Plus it only encompasses a small part of the intro. I also say that religion can comfort.
          My concern is for the target argument to understand that I believe god won't help them...so everything must be used. At that point they can flip me off, but they should stay and get some good information...after that they can tell me I'm nut-job when it comes to the almighty.
          On the other side of the coin, I've been in lectures on survival that have pointed out that a strong belief structure actually IMPROVES your ablity to survive. I disagree, but I sure didn't leave...the information was too good and important.
          All that being said, despite our disagreement on this one point, I do appreciate your openess and honesty.
  • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

    Sun, January 20, 2008 - 5:45 AM
    Great intro! Don’t worry about pissing people off or offending them. More people need to realize that in a survival situation niceties go out the window. I like the God thing and I am christen. I have a great joke along those lines if you want it, concerning god and helping people survive. I will call you and tell you it if you want to use it. It’s a great intro; remember to allow your passion to come through. When people feel that you care they will care too. Right now I am in CERT class and my instructor sucks. I don’t see any passion and think she’s is useless. She has been in the Emergency Management field for almost 30 years. Don’t forget the passion.
    • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

      Sun, January 20, 2008 - 8:39 AM
      That's too bad Chuck. After 30 years she might have a bad case of burn-out. My wife Lynn had a similar complaint yesterday about her CPR (professional level) instructor.
      I threw in my comments on the almighty for a reason...and it wasn't to anger the good students at UCSF (which I have in the past). It was to point out that divine intervention isn't likely...and you have to pull yourself through...not wait for the God, Allah, Bhudda, or [ name your own] to do the saving for you.
      If I'm lost in the eastern Sierra, the only person I could count on other than myself would be Lynn. (Chuck knows her and probably realizes why.)

      The lecture group are medical-healthcare students at Univ. of Calif. San Francisco who are also members of a university wide outdoor adventure group.
      • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

        Sun, January 20, 2008 - 4:08 PM
        If I was lost anywhere I would deffently not mind having Lynn there. I love my wife but as for survival partners Lynn would deffently be at the top of my list.Along with you Doc. and Joe and Kristy.
        I think you may be right she may be burned out.Or I may be just overly critical. I do have a habbit of expecting my instructers to be smarter then me in the subject they are teaching.
        I did not think that your intentions where to anger.
        • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

          Sun, January 20, 2008 - 6:52 PM
          I think though Brent's comments should be taken seriously...and I'm rethinking my attitude. I think I could revise my personal belief by editing it out and adding that faith can give comfort, but depending entirely on divine rescue (as some folks in dire situations) may not be the best idea. God helps those who help themselves.
          As you know I got into a pissing contest with the almighty a few years ago.

          One of the problems I have taking classes in herbalism is finding instructors who don't bore me, and know more than I do. That being the case I tend to take VERY esoteric classes to make certain I know nothing about them.

          Lynn will be taking a 144 hour class room course with another 40 hours doing clinic work/ambulance service. This will re-certify her in EMT and Wilderness EMT skills. As you can imagine, when I'm out in the boondocks with Lynn, I'm not actually worried about much. If I break an ankle she'll cut tree branches with her Tracker knife, strip off her jacket and make a travois for me. Then she'll lovingly drag me umpteen miles to our car...fighting off a black bear and a cougar in the process. Then drive me at break neck speed down Mt. Whitney to Lone Pine California, where I'll be helicopter out to Fresno.
          Some where in between she'll kick my ass for breaking my ankle.
          • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

            Sun, January 20, 2008 - 9:10 PM
            Bottom line is, there are a great many people who give some ammount of credit to God during very trying times and survival experiences. There has to be some value there. Study it out, and grab onto some aspect you can agree with. Maybe it's the hope, maybe it's the meditative process of praying and believing in something bigger, which allows people to see beyond themselves, their immediate circumstances, and clear their minds or restore their willpower. I'm not saying you gotta start going to church, but it's undeniable that faith in a higher power has many times in the past, and will always continue to, have a real effect and bearing on many people's survival experiences. It's worth looking into, and finding some element about it that you can agree on or understand.

            A good teacher is always a student. Always willing to learn and expand their own understanding. It's a credit to you that you're even considering to revise your approach in such a short time of consideration.
  • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

    Mon, January 21, 2008 - 8:37 AM
    Excellent.

    The "God" comment was the part I most liked. Edit it if you wish but, the truth is, if God loved the survivor then the survivor wouldn't be in the survival situation in the first place.

    Innocent people die every day, all day long, under horrible circumstances, and God never lifts a finger. When Christians can demonstrate an instance of miraculous intervention, I might reconsider the "God" comment, but not until then.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Constructive Comments Requested

      Mon, January 21, 2008 - 9:12 AM
      So you're looking for a cosmic nanny? Give me a break...
      • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

        Mon, January 21, 2008 - 9:55 AM
        I wish I could get you all here for the actual presentation. The preamble is the smallest part of it. I have a powerpoint presentation planned with common plants and the most effective ways to use them if you're in survival UP THE CREEK WITHOUT A PADDLE situation. The majority of these kids (damn that's a condescending remark) think they will always have an up to date first aid kit, etc, by their side. Hopefully they will. But on the off chance it falls into the river, lake, or ocean, or more likely they leave it in the trunk of the car at the trailhead, it's good to know what will stop bleeding and slow down infection.
  • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

    Mon, January 21, 2008 - 9:51 AM
    I'm not what one would call religious, but if I was giving a secular class, I'd leave out the god comment purely because if I infuriated someone right off the bat, they'd absorb nothing of the lesson to follow and I wouldn't want to inject any hostility into a classroom setting because it could impact not only the offended party or parties, but the people around them. Losing control of a classroom setting is never good and is going to give you bad word of mouth, which can hit you in the pocketbook later.
    • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

      Mon, January 21, 2008 - 11:23 AM
      I should explain more clearly about my comment on god and faith and why I inserted it. This is not my first lecture on survival. With few exceptions when I've talked about skills, abilities, true grit, etc...the audience always brings up god and faith into the equation. This has left me somewhat at a loss, because I'm not conventionally religious, nor do I believe in divine intervention. So I've hemmed and hawwed rather than flat out state MY personal beliefs.
      My point, which obviously I made poorly in the preamble, is that having faith that you will be rescue and then doing NOTHING to rescue yourself is a bad idea. Faith can give people the strength to go forward when you don't think you can. But on the other hand I've read about and known individuals who had no faith in a deity, and survived by believing in themselves.
      If there is a god who cares, I think it wants us to be capable. It wants us to have knowledge to save ourselves as well others. Relying on him or her alone isn't enoug.h
      So how do I tell people without making them angry, faith is fine but learn skills?
      I wish the question of faith didn't come up in these conferences, but they almost always do. I want to be polite and honest. But with this topic I walk a tightrope.
      • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

        Mon, January 21, 2008 - 12:30 PM
        lol wow.... I didn't realize God was such a hot topic... I was thinking more along the lines of a simple ''If it gives you comfort and strength to believe in something bigger than yourself, go for it.'' and kinda leave it at that, and move on to the OTHER 90% of things that have to do with survival. I sure would hate to see this thread get hijacked by our differing theocracies, or lack thereof. There is so much more substance to what Chuck is offering here that could be discussed or built upon!

        Shall we open another thread to discuss the spiritual/higher power aspect as it pertains to survivalism or intervention of otherwise fatal circumstances? Mick? Brent? anyone game for it?
        • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

          Mon, January 21, 2008 - 1:54 PM
          Sounds good to me. But right now I'm grieving the loss of one of the best folk singers of Americana...John Stewart. I was a long time fan. Sang my children to sleep with some of his tunes. Even sang one last summer at primitive skills meet.
          Don't have many heroes, but he was one. Glad he died quick. Stroke. He had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's last year.
          • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

            Thu, January 31, 2008 - 9:25 AM
            I loved that song. And you sang it so well. I feel ya, Doc.

            And just for my 2c, as always, I love the God comment. YOu've made it before, and I loved it then. :-)

            Fuck em all. ;-)p

            (I love everyone, and believe in higher powers, but everyone can have thier opinion. I really think compared to everything else in the intro (which is perfect, by the way), it will barely be noticed by most.

            Peace and love!

            KK
        • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

          Thu, January 24, 2008 - 7:19 AM
          I don't want to start a HOLY WAR on chuck's thread. He asked for an honest opinion and I gave it to him. Otherwise I wouldnt have said anything. I think Chuck is an awesome dude that post's alot of useful information in this group.
      • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

        Mon, January 21, 2008 - 7:56 PM
        I think, personally, I'd wait for someone to bring up faith rather than bringing it up for them. If they do, find a way to explain to them how to turn faith into a tool. I mean, aren't Christians the ones who are always saying "God helps those who help themselves." It's not a bad line of thinking regardless of your personal spiritual beliefs.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Constructive Comments Requested

    Tue, January 22, 2008 - 8:53 AM
    I don't think Chuck wanted a debate on the topic here. Brent made a suggestion, someone made a counter-point, and Chuck has both options to consider in whether or not he will modify his opening accordingly.

    Either offer a critique on something else in Chuck's speech or open a new thread if you want to debate God's means of providing.
    • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

      Tue, January 22, 2008 - 2:09 PM
      I want to thank everyone for their input on this. I think I will excise my personal comment on god, but I'll be ready with the "God helps those..."
      remark when it comes up later...as it will.
      Thanks again.
      C.
      • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

        Fri, February 1, 2008 - 8:17 PM
        Chuck:
        If this is a course on survival, you probably don;t need quite this much intro. This is a targeted market and they'll be there to learn survival stuff. If it's college kids they'll be texting friends by the 2nd paragraph (ADD seems to be widespread these days :)

        I could see using this as a preamble to a book though. As far as the God thing, piss on 'em if they don;t like it. Me, I'd say something more like "God gave you the tools to help yourself, so forget about praying for salvation and save your own damned ass."

        But that's me. Hope you're feeling better.
        • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

          Fri, February 1, 2008 - 10:49 PM
          "(ADD seems to be widespread these days :) "

          Q: How many kids with A.D.D. does it take to change a lightbulb?
          A: Wanna go ride bikes?
          • Re: Constructive Comments Requested

            Sat, February 9, 2008 - 4:35 PM
            Just wanted to let you good folks know the lecture at UCSF Medical went very well. The young folks and not so young folks were attentive, excited, and asked some great questions. Just before leaving THE question was asked and I responded that if belief in a deity helps a person survive, then by all means it is a good and important part of survival. But some skills would certainly help the situation also. God helps those who help themselves. I got a good round of applause and a request to do the same lecture at UC Davis.
            So thanks for the comments...and I'm going back to my leisurely life style for a while.

            CG

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