Valley or ridge-top?

topic posted Fri, November 6, 2009 - 7:36 PM by  Laurel
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I'm wondering which you feel is safer, more defensible, and why. I'm a fan of the valley, with limited points of entry, difficult to find, but I've heard different views here and in some reading on castles and forts.

I'm sure it depends somewhat on the type of threat. I'm thinking as long as we man/woman the ridgetops we are good.

Not that I'll be moving, but I should know what the weaknesses are. Enlighten me please!
posted by:
Laurel
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  • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

    Sat, November 7, 2009 - 7:08 AM
    I'm not a studied or experienced battlefeild tactician but I would think just on the face of this question that the highground is almost without a doubt always more defensable....think of how long the jews at Mazada held out against the Romans, consider that Custer though technologicly suppeiour to the Sioux was slaughtered largely due to the fact that they had the high ground...FWIW
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      Re: Valley or ridge-top?

      Sat, November 7, 2009 - 7:28 AM
      The high ground is always more defensible.

      But you don't ever occupy the actual ridge top. That silhouettes you against the sky. Stay just below the ridge line. If the enemy comes up the rear of the elevated feature, you'll hear them coming, and they've just exhausted themselves getting up there.
      • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

        Sat, November 7, 2009 - 3:57 PM
        I love this topic. I bought my house because of its location on High ground with water at my back. There is no public boat launch so my escape valve is a boat to the other side of the lake but from the house we could take out anyone trying to canoe in up our back door very easy. Out in the open with a slow moving boat I can use the water like tracers and track the bullets right into the target. W e practice on moving targets out there. Out front like Salil says we planned our defenses out from the house down the hill a ways to keep anyone from firing on the house itself. Much easier to fortify several positions then to try and fortify the house. The power company was nice enough to clear a killing field for us under the power lines. All we had to do was build a series of sand bag deer blinds. Completly covered in old pine bows and logs and other cammo . To my neighbors they are deer blinds and they are for all purposes deer blinds but they are located in such a way as to give us interlocking fields of fire and command a view of anyone approaching for several hundred yards. One of the pits comands a nice 1/4 mile view of the road in both directions.

        I have no delusions though. A trained military unit with even light artillery could wipe us out in minutes. But I think we would be safe from gangs of thugs and or starving people trying to steal our stores. The problem with fixed defenses is just that. They are fixed in one place. Unless we have several extra guys we are stuck in a defensive posture. I have two flank attacks planned by one shooter most likely me. where as I would get out to one side or the other and hit an enemy from behind and off to one side. This could give an attacking enemy the illusion of more men. The most important thing in any fight (in my opinion ) is knowing that you have a fight coming before your foe does. Early warning systems like motion detectors , trip wire flares, look out posts, sentries, neighbors sounding the alarm. etc. If a group doesnt know you are there and gets into range you have a huge advantage if you can hit enough of them in the first round of fire. I am working on connecting all of our positions with some form of communications. Most likely hard wired phones or walkie talkies. Dont shoot until they reach the yellow flag kind of stuff. I would not try assaulting my place if I were faced with the challenge. I would ask for a tank or use some kind of air strike. Night time is the big variable. Not many untrained thugs will try to assault a fortress in the dark. But anyone who has been trained knows that with some night vision attacking at night is the best way to overcome old shool defenses.

        This topic reminds me of Buford at Gettysburg. He held the high ground for the union army until the infantry could come up and take the positions. Using dismounted cavalry they won the day against many more confederate infantry. They were dug in and had the high ground. The entire battle was won by that act. Every attack by the confederates were up hill. Pickets charge was over almost 1 mile of open ground ,uphill and under fire. round top, the peach Orchard, etc. all union army holding the high ground. High ground gives you that extra long view where you can make those longer shots. If you have not guessed I am a Civil war buff and have studied the tactics of that era and how they evolved into the way we fight today. Some basics still apply like flank attacks and suppressing fire. Great topic, thanks for posting. Michael
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          Re: Valley or ridge-top?

          Sat, November 7, 2009 - 9:21 PM
          Hi, I'm new here. Salt have you ever been to Little Big Horn Battle Field?
          • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

            Sun, November 8, 2009 - 10:26 AM
            no I haven't though I've seen documenteries on it. .....I'm guessing your going to tell me I'm wrong....
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              Re: Valley or ridge-top?

              Sun, November 8, 2009 - 11:27 AM
              Yeah i'm afraid so. Custer had the high ground, he and the 7th Cav got thier ass handed to them because they were overwhelmed by vastly superior numbers. hope i don't embarrass you, I'm not trying to.
              • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

                Sun, November 8, 2009 - 12:25 PM
                Here's a better description of the situation, without giving away too much location info.

                Hill country, ridges and valleys for miles. Our valley has three farms, ours is the middle one and smallest. So a strong neighbor on either side along the gravel road. Isolated. All the best farmland is in the valleys, small creek at the bottom of the valley. Our place faces east, side valley off the main. We are sheltered from the prevailing west wind by a steep ridge behind us. There are points of the ridge around our place so with the ridge behind we are inside a U shape.

                A trail goes up to both ridge points and to the top of the ridge behind. I believe we need a lookout on the ridge behind, or partway down that ridge, (as Red Reagan pointed out, you would hear them coming down, ridges are covered with mature oaks underbrush, years of fallen leaves) If we had enough people I'd have one on each ridge point, just to signal if either of the other two farms have visitors.

                We have big guardian dogs and little dogs as well.

                What specific weaknesses could I address in this situation?

                PS I'm Odawa Tribe, and have a patch on my jacket that says "Custer Had It Coming"
                • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

                  Tue, November 10, 2009 - 10:49 AM
                  Might consider pening some alert dogs at the ridges? You would know better than us if this would be feasible. Are your neighbors preppers? If so maybe set up a secure com system with them for mutal aid. If your valley has only single route access set up somekind of ccc system so that it could be moniterd?
        • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

          Sun, November 8, 2009 - 12:12 PM
          Thanks Michael "If you have not guessed I am a Civil war buff and have studied the tactics of that era " You should talk to my husband, huge civil war buff. He's on my friend list as Brian. Dork pith helmet but he carries it off somehow.

          Great descriptions, fascinating. I'll post a better description of our situation, just looking for holes I haven't thought of.
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            Re: Valley or ridge-top?

            Sun, November 8, 2009 - 1:52 PM
            I agree, Custer was an ass, I also heard he died with his arrow shirt on. How well do you know your neighbors? If not to well sound them out with out giving to much about yourself away. Good helpful neighbors are an asset, you need to be one too.
      • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

        Sun, November 8, 2009 - 7:10 PM
        I second Salil and my home building site has been selected accordingly.

        The military ridgeline is the best place. You have the full view of the valley and can more easily defend your farmland down there, you have the advantage of higher ground WITHOUT silhouetting yourself on the top of a hill. Anyone coming from the other side will exhaust themselves, you'll hear them, AND they will have to expose themselves as silhouettes on the hill crest to attack you.

        You can hash opinions all day long, but that right there is the correct answer, period.
        • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

          Mon, November 9, 2009 - 6:16 AM
          So, explain to me what we would set up below the ridgeline....

          Unfortunately the ridges here are flat on top, to people coming over the back ridge wouldn't necessarily be exhausted. Still, I like the idea of setting something up below the ridgeline.
          • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

            Mon, November 9, 2009 - 1:21 PM
            you building a house there?
            • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

              Fri, November 13, 2009 - 8:55 AM
              I can see now that you're speaking of a hypothetical piece of land.

              Once you GET some terrain, it will be much easier to assess the situation and decide what goes where. The simple models of valleys and ridges we're all imagining here is almost guaranteed to have nothing to do with the terrain you end up with, so it will be of little help.
  • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

    Tue, November 10, 2009 - 2:12 PM
    Always the high ground. Ask General Ewell about Gettysburg.
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      Re: Valley or ridge-top?

      Tue, November 10, 2009 - 2:50 PM
      Since the ridge to your back is flat you may want to consider an observation/listening post. Basically a 1 or 2 person sight, highly camo'd to prevent detection. It's an early warning post so those of you in the valley can get ready for what ever. It can be a conservation of personnel, but may strain your communication ability, Try Googling some Army field manuals , maybe field fortifications, or OP/LP manuals.
      • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

        Sat, November 14, 2009 - 9:14 PM
        The stone wall at Fredricksburg. What a slaughter. Confederates were dug in behind a stone wall on high ground. Union troops came out of the city and had to cross a bridge and assemble out in the open in front of the wall. They lost 20 thousand men . There were some terrible lessons learned in civil war. Yup High ground is the only place to be in a gun fight. Michael
        • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

          Sun, November 15, 2009 - 7:24 PM
          something tells me the stone wall and the bridge had a lot more to do with victory than the slope of the land. Jonny Reb coulda been downhill, behind a stone wall, and the union soldiers would STILL have had to expose themselves on the bridge and assemble in full view in front of the stone wall. The real factors were the bottleneck for the union troops, their lack of cover, and the COMPLETE impenetrable cover enjoyed by the rebels.

          Stone walls are pretty awesome. I'd rather have a stone wall than a hilltop if me and the other guy had to flip a coin to see who got which. As things are I'm going to have both, so I'm pretty happy.
  • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

    Mon, November 16, 2009 - 12:51 AM
    The high ground is usually the best, but sometimes terrain may dictate a better location. One of the ways to set your defense is not only to make sure you have good fields of fire, but the placement of thorn bushes or something similar in locations that are hard to cover can be used to divert people into your fields of fire. The military uses barbwire to funnel people into the "killing zones" that is covered by your best rapid fire weapons. A natural tangle of thorn bushes, thorny trees, berry bushes, wild roses, etc., will do the same for a retreat (it msut look natural and blend in with the surrounding area). Thornes, cactus, etc are great also for filling in areas like depressions where people could take cover from your fire. However, always remember that survival is not about surviving firefights - it is about avoiding them. Military units may be able to sustain a lose of members. With families - it is a much different situation. Losing your wife or son is much different than losing a couple of battle buddies - as hard as that is. Just thinking. Major Dad.
    • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

      Mon, November 16, 2009 - 4:40 AM
      Great Idea on the thorns. I will be adding some .

      Fredricksburg was the worst possible position for the Union troops . Bottlenecked, uphill and facing an enemy force that was entrenched behind a stone wall. It was insane and yet they tried anyway. Creating those bottle necks in front of our Sand bag blinds will help to achieve some of that. Using lots of nasty thorns should funnel the bad guys right into hell. Michael
      • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

        Mon, November 16, 2009 - 5:35 PM
        Just to rub it in, my place has thorns in all the right spots. Some of them are blackberry tangles, others are wild roses. the roses are the worst. Like freaking fish hooks on vines. I hate them, but in some spots I'll probably leave them anyway.
        • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

          Mon, November 16, 2009 - 6:54 PM
          I personally like using blackberry tangles, because you can also use them as a source of food. If placed right, they also will divert attention from your retreat to the source of food for scavengers who are hungry. It could be risky to have them in a place where they are easily seen as it may increase attention to your location, but again, depending on the placement of the bushes and retreat, it is better to have someone looking down and picking berries than looking up and seeing your retreat.

          Just thinking - Major dad
    • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

      Mon, November 16, 2009 - 8:57 PM
      black locust has some of the nastiest thorns, they used to use them as nails
      i was thinkin of the brambles and thorns for in places i didnt really want people and maybe some poison ivy in underneath :P
      another idea i had was diggin postholes about 12 in dia and 18 in deep. let the grass grow up in them and just mow over them so you cant see em
      anyone running at you that steps in one of those wil be done running
      wouldnt take much work to add an old board with a few nails stickin straight up in the bottom, the grass would pretty much hide it
      • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

        Tue, November 17, 2009 - 4:31 PM
        why not just have a mine field and a few tripwires that set off flares and smoke? Claymores,even. Surely you guys know how to make improvised munitions.
        • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

          Tue, November 17, 2009 - 4:40 PM
          im sure we all do but those need replaced occasionally and are only good once
          thorns never stop working
          • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

            Tue, November 17, 2009 - 5:28 PM
            its always good to replace them occasionally . helps you to always be aware of where you put them.

            Probably only set those up if you are a constant target for attack like Michigan
            • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

              Tue, November 17, 2009 - 5:37 PM
              when TSHTF youre gonna be busy gettin tucked awa, wont have a lot of tie t set mines and stuff and its damned hard t justify to the law why yu have mines in your yard now....lol
  • Re: Valley or ridge-top?

    Tue, November 17, 2009 - 6:03 PM
    was doin some reading, found references to defending yourself in low places, was pretty cool
    heres a few highlights:
    set up diverter barricades, trees or rocks that if something is rolled down at you, the diverter steers it to one side
    set up false breastworks for your attackers, sticks forming a flimsy wall you can lay sod over so from the backside it looks good and solid
    if you can, mark your side with something you can see even in the dark
    dig cross trenches for people to trip in, not big enuff to hide in
    and covered pit traps with stakes at the bottom

    thats what this antique book had to offer