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At one point I wanted to raise rabbits for food and fur. They multiply quickly, get the most meat for a modest feed investment, and are pretty tasty. I was sad to learn that one cannot live solely off rabbit meat. I heard that it causes you to basically starve because the meat is so lean. Has anyone else heard of this, and have any info on exactly what it does, and how to avoid starving from just eating rabbits? P.S. I don't intend on eating only rabbits, but if the SHTF you never know.
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Portland
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 4:22 PM"Rabbit Starvation", as a concept, does not apply only to rabbits but to any high protein, low fat, no carb diet. Why do we crave fat and carbs in modern society? Because they were once a survival need - evolution programmed us to gorge on them whenever we had the chance. Once they were harder to come by. Now they are cheap and all around us, so we eat them to excess. And then we start to talk about them being unhealthy, even as we over-indulge, and think we should eliminate them in all situations.
On BOSS courses we subsist on a diet very low in fat for several days before we teach large game harvesting, while pushing our bodies very hard. We teach this using a sheep, since the courses are in summer (out of deer season). By the time we kill that sheep, everyone is craving fat! We crowd around and eat every scrap!
But the take-home point should NOT be to eliminate rabbits from your diet. The take-home point is that you need a BALANCED diet. Get some grains in there for carbs, if you can. Catch some fish, maybe a grouse or squirrel, and if you are lucky enough to get a wild pig...!
And make sure you eat all the fat from the animals you do kill. Trust me, in a hunter/gatherer lifestyle, you won't have to worry about watching your weight. It is our modern couch-potato lifestyles (with unlimited supplies of easy fat & carbs) that make it necessary to deny these natural cravings.
Here is a chart to gauge the relative fat content of game:
www.gunnersden.com/index.ht...alue.html
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 6:22 PMi certainly agree with darkling about a balanced diet. but the concept that rabbits contain little or no nourishment is utter nonsense. the same has been said of caribou. i know people convinced that caribou and rabbit contain little of no food value. bullshit!
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 6:32 PMAgreed Patrick - and looking at the chart, rabbit does not seem to be abnormally low in fat. It might depend, of course, on how it was cooked, and on how healthy (fat) the rabbit was.
I remember that Brian, in the Hatchet books by Gary Paulsen, determines that rabbits are superior food to larger game like deer and elk.
I know bear meat was popular with some frontiersmen (Davy Crockett swore by it) - I bet they have a lot of fat in the late summer/early fall!
My personal favorite is wild pig. Good meat, and in most parts of the US you can hunt them year round. They are considered invasive (colonists brought them from Europe so rich men could go on boar hunts) and do some significant damage in some fragile ecosystems. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 7:24 PMAs stated in "How To Stay Alive In The Woods " By Bradford Angier '"An exclusive diet of any lean meat , of which rabbit is a practical example , will cause digestive upset and diarrhea. / ......../ The diarrhea and general discomfort will not be relieved unless fat is added to the diet . Death will follow , otherwise , within a few days . One would probably be better off on just water than on rabbit and water ." -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 7:50 PMHas anyone seen peer-reviewed studies on this? I am finding a lot of anecdotal stuff, but nothing I would stake my life on.
If nothing else, I should think you could enjoy the fattier parts of the rabbits, cook them in a pan or stew (Hausenpheffer!) instead of on a spit (so as not to lose drippings), and YES - supplement your diet. Get some carbs and starches in there, which are easier for the body to convert into energy than protein.
That's the crux of it, as I understand it. The body uses protein, fat, and carbs for different purposes (protein for building new cells, carbs for energy, fat for storing energy, among other things). If it is short on any one of those it either cannibalizes the body's reserves or it converts them through it's own chem labs. Converting protein into energy is *very* inefficient. So the more you are working your body, the more you need fat and carbs. The more you are sitting around, the less you should consume (which is why we have developed modern prejudices against them).
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btw
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 7:53 PMbtw, thanks! Tinkles, for posting this!
I certainly don't know everything about the topic, and it could be very important. Let's all figure it out together!
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 8:57 PMWith rabbit starvation, its where someone just eats the meat, nothing else. A way around rabbit starvation is to eat the whole rabbit. All of it. Guts, brains, eyes, all of it. Its how some tribes and predators get around it. -
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eat the whole rabbit
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 9:13 PMThanks Deer Runner
This makes perfect sense to me. I would normally use the brain for tanning (if I planned to use the hide), but certainly all the organ meat is good eating!
Does anyone know the relative fat content of various organs? I bet we could google it. -
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Re: eat the whole rabbit
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 9:33 PMrabbit liver is delicious.
and when cleaning a fat rabbit, there is plenty of fat in the body cavity.
this would be a perfect choice for the fat to cook the rabbit with.
i raised rabbit for years, and live primarily on deer and moose meat. both lean and rich.
the woods around my home abound with game. 20-30 deer feed most of the winter at our hay stacks.
anyone that starves in this area is either stupid, a poor shot, or both. -
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Re: eat the whole rabbit
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 11:10 PMMy grandpa raised rabbits for a while, and I remember eating a lot of them. I think my fav way is fried rabbit. Anyway,this is all very interesting. I have nothing of value to contribute, but I'm enjoying the read. -
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Re: eat the whole rabbit
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 11:20 PMFried, hausenfeifer(SP), stewed, BBQed. To me, wild rabbit tastes like pork chops.
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Re: eat the whole rabbit
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 11:21 PMExactly. Most that go out into the bush needs to listen to old times who have been out there. Course I'm not old and can't say I know everything. ;-} -
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"can't say I know everything"
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 12:40 AMMy favorite college professor used to say, "we are all co-learners here."
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 12:49 AMThere's some discussion of rabbit starvation here
www.westonaprice.org/traditi...ans.html
This part was interesting---
"In fact, small animals called for special preparation. The meat was removed from the bones, roasted and pounded. The bones were dried and ground into a powder. Then the bones were mixed with the meat and any available grease, a procedure that would greatly lower the percentage of polyunsaturated fatty acids, while raising the total content of saturated fat."
Could dried, powdered bones count as carbohydrates?
Also, hutch rabbits (and I've butchered out, prepared and eaten many!) can be fatty. Tasty fat, too! I've never had wild rabbit, but will speculate that they would be more lean than hutch rabbits. If your hutch rabbits aren't fatty enough, slip them some whole oats and small winter squash with the seeds in. Sunflower seeds are good, too. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 2:26 AMCarb's exsist in plants also . Could a starch from plant life also counter lean meat ? Think of the Adkins diet ... Lower carb's , increase meat , until the body reaches Ketosis and you have weight loss as the body begins to burn it own fat to offset the fat loss in the diet . -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 2:53 AMI think carbs would answer. As I understand it, the lean meat does not give the body energy for strenuous activity, and so the body first uses its reserves (the goal of Atkins), and then begins to cannibalize muscle (unhealthy by anyone's standards).
I also believe (someone correct me if I am wrong) that unused carbs are converted into fat by the body. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 4:21 AMIts a pretty big debate whether carbs are actually converted into fat or not. The conventional wisdom says yes, the cutting edge health and fitness folks say no.
You burn fat every day, all day long, btw - its a ratio of caloric burn. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 8:03 AMThanks everyone for the response. I actually have to disagree with the comments about the Atkins diet. The Atkins diet doesn't starve you of fat, it uses fat as fuel instead of carbohydrates, so you HAVE to eat fatty foods while you're doing Atkins.
I guess in a SHTF situation I would have to suck it up and eat the bunny offal. I'm not a fan of innerds, blech. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 10:56 AMtoo bad , tinkles. you don't know what you're missing. rabbit liver and especially deer liver is amazingly tasty.
pop by, we'll get a fresh deer and the first meal, liver, will impress you.
actually, as far as rabbits are concerned, hutch rabbits are much more tasty and infinitely more tender than wild.
raising rabbits is great value. lots of protein, from gentle, easy to raise critters.
my fave way to cook them is to butcher fresh, cut into pieces, brown the pieces in bacon fat, arrange in a baking pan with onions, garlic, seasoned salt and a bottle of GOOD beer (the better the beer, the better the dish...duh!..) and bake for about 4 hours in a slow oven, adding a little water and basting as necessary....................delicious. i've had many rave reviews over the years. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 11:26 AMSee, I prefer wild rabbits - less tender but I like the gamey taste more. Same with venison - farm raised venison isnt nearly as good as wild
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 11:53 AMOoh Patrick that sounds yummy! I'll have to give that a try. I cook in cast iron ALL the time and prefer bacon grease to any type of oil, so we never have a shortage of bacon grease here. Man, I have to get me a rabbit and try your recipe! I just have to find a bottle of beer..... -
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I just have to find a bottle of beer.....
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 1:10 PMThere ya go Zarina - that's the real crisis we need to plan for. Where are we going to find our bottles of beer?!
Anyone want to start a brewing/distilling thread? -
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Re: I just have to find a bottle of beer.....
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 1:30 PM<farm raised venison isnt nearly as good as wild >
i could not agree more.
elk is commonly raised domestically in the area.
it's not even close to wild elk in taste.
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Re: I just have to find a bottle of beer.....
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 1:35 PMThanks for sharing that recipe, sounds really tasty.
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Re: I just have to find a bottle of beer.....
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 2:00 PMit frustrates me so much - in TX there's a serious deer issue. They block our roads, like, in the cities, do millions in property damage every year, but when you order venison its imported from New Zealand.
What. The. Fudge. -
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Re: I just have to find a bottle of beer.....
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 9:23 PMLOL Salil
I found something even funner in a natural food store in Eugene, OR - "organic dandelion greens" - from California, of course. I guess they were for the Oregonians who had sprayed the ones growing in their yards. -
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Re: I just have to find a bottle of beer.....
Wed, June 10, 2009 - 10:27 PMi love dandilions! i eat them a lot. and the blossoms are tasty when fresh too.
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Fri, June 12, 2009 - 10:20 AM" With rabbit starvation, its where someone just eats the meat, nothing else. A way around rabbit starvation is to eat the whole rabbit. All of it. Guts, brains, eyes, all of it. Its how some tribes and predators get around it."
Absolutely correct. If you are trying to survive on rabbit alone, eat the whole damn thing, bones and all. You can grind the bones to powder and use it like flour to fry the meat...put the fat in the skillet for grease/oil. Eat the liver, as it is chalk full of vitamins. Especially if you are trying to survive during the winter with limited amount of sunlight (vitamin D). -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 2:14 AMWild rabbit is used to make felt hats in australia, they pay more for wild rabbit fur as it's easy to process due to lower fat content in the sub-cutanious tissues(the fat layer under the skin), in comparison to the hutch rabbit.
Wild or range animals generally have higher fat contents after spring, or after a rain event which follows an abundance of green grass, this increases the amount of fatty soluble vitamins as well,in the meat and the milk.
Death by rabbit sounds like a load crap to me, you might get a vitamin or nutrient deficiency, if you ate nothing but rabbit meat for like 3 or 6 months. Eating the whole rabbit as posted before would prevent a rapid on set of deficiencies as there are high amounts of fat in the brain, liver, along the intestines where the glands are, and bone marrow(60% fat). I'd still want to eat some fruit and veggies though, I'm sure there would be some essential vitamins and minerals missing from the rabbits diet, that won't affect the rabbits well being but would affect yours.
About the atkins diet the Ketosis process uses up pooftenth of energy, you lose like 0.01g of fat a day from that process. It's the protein in that diet which causes the weight lose as protein acts as a appetite inhibitor. So eventually you actually eat less and that's why you lose weight on the atkins diet. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 6:53 AMCraig, you don't know what you're talking about with the Atkins diet, or Ketosis. I was prescribed the "Cave Man Diet" years ago by a doctor for a problem I was having, This diet was very similar to the Atkins. I have also done the Atkins diet many times over the years. The only people who don't lose weight on it are those who are doing it improperly, or those people who are severly metabolically challenged. You cannot cheat on the Atkins, or it won't work, period. One more point, my 17 yr. old son has has Diabetes since he was 4, so I know something about ketosis and what it can do to the body. You do lose weight when the body is in a state of ketosis, and it's not just a "poofteenth."
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 7:33 AMThe best way to solve the rabbit question is for one of you brave souls , with access to rabbit , to try eating only rabbit and water for a few days , no brains , bone , guts .....just rabbit . In your home where if problems occur you will be able to off set those with no harm . Then try the whole rabbit . Better to know now than when your life is in the sling ! -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 8:51 AMThanks W.O. I'm not in disagreeance about the fact that eating the whole rabbit in it's enirety would prevent rabbit starvation, in fact I think that makes perfect sense. I just disagree with Aussie Man about his Ketosis and weight loss ideas.
I read somewhere, I wish I could remember where, that some of the first settlers here were living off of rabbits through the winter. People were weak, tired, and some people died, no matter how much rabbit they ate. Too bad they didn't know to eat everything, including the bones. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 8:57 AMHahaha, I just noticed the Iliono advertisement in the upper right hand corner, ha, she's dressed like a bunny. I bet some of you wouldn't mind starving on that rabbit. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 10:10 AMAt my age just looking at her gives me diarrhea ! LOL -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 11:13 AMhey freeatlast....maybe the giant in jack and the beanstalk had the right idea....remember?
"fee fi fo fum, i smell the blood of an englishman.
be he live, or be he dead, i'll grind his bones to make my bread."that of an englishman.......
bone meal could be used in lotsa recipes.
(being irish. i'd ten to think that rabbit bonemeal would be more palatable than that of an englishman.......)
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 11:16 AMsorry, that was a little garbled. i wish there was an edit function in posting.
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 9:07 AMI ate rabbit before. We had it in a stew with carrots and potatoes. Why not grow some carrots and potatoes to eat with the rabbit? Guts are gross and how would you grind bones into powder? -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 2:08 PMfreeatlast
I think you will find the organ meats much more appealing if you are ever living in strenuous circumstances on an otherwise lowfat diet. I know I did. Your body will crave the fat, and you will need it as part of a balanced diet. The bones can be softened by boiling and/or ground with a mortar and pestle. The bones are a lot of work, and I would probably settle for sucking the marrow out of the larger ones after they had been stewed with the rest of the rabbit (and carrots and potatoes :)
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Goat Milk
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 2:10 PMHey all, how about keeping a few goats for milk? You'd get fat, calcium, cream for your coffee, and a garbage disposal (goats will eat anything). -
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Re: Goat Milk
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 2:26 PMI have considered this as well, and you can eat them for meat. I was looking into making goat cheese for awhile as a part of a homestead income.
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Re: Goat Milk
Wed, June 17, 2009 - 3:21 PMGoats rock.
GOATS ROCK!!!
:-)
Wanna start a new thread on this?
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Unsu...
Re: Rabbit Starvation
Sat, July 11, 2009 - 1:21 PMVariety is the important point here. Subsisting in the long-term on an unvaried diet is likely going to lead to some type of nutritional deficiencies. For example, fish is very nutritious, but eating little but fish can lead to B vitamin deficiencies even if it's a fatty fish such as mackerel or salmon.
Rabbits are a very cost effective source of meat, fiber, and fur, but you'd be wise to round your livestock out with some nice fat fowl or lard pigs if you were producing all or most of your own meats. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Sun, July 12, 2009 - 10:38 AMMy wife will not eat any thing she has helped raise or seen butchered ! If she gets hungry enough this should change . -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Mon, July 13, 2009 - 9:42 AMreally? i'm just the opposite. i prefer home raised meat and i prefer to do the kill myself, because i know that it is done with love and respect and humanely. even if we sold the animal for meat, i preferred to do the kill myself, for the same reason. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Mon, July 13, 2009 - 9:46 AMI can't kill.
But, I have huge respect and gratitude for those who can. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Tue, July 14, 2009 - 3:30 PMI cant kill rabbits. Bunnies are my friends. >=x3
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Wed, July 15, 2009 - 10:05 PMMy family raised rabbits for many years. You can eat them every day, the domesticated ones have plenty of fat. The wild ones are pretty lean though and you need to supplement your diet with oils and grease.
I have seen the same said about fish. They are very lean and you starve for grease if you do not have anything else in your diet.
Rabbits are great to raise. They are easier (and less stinky) than chickens to skin and clean. They are the right size for dinner for 2. They are pickier than chickens when it comes to food though. You can feed chickens lizards and they will fight over it.
I did notice a big difference between chickens that grew up roaming the yard versus the ones you buy in a store. I never saw such fat chickens until I moved off the farm. Pigs too. If you pen your animals up like veal then they will have lots of fat.
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Thu, July 16, 2009 - 4:47 AMTinkles, I wouldn't let the concept of rabbit starvation keep you from raising rabbits for fun, food and fur. I mean, just don't eat solid rabbit meat and nothing else. And if TSHTF, you are way better off having rabbits than no rabbits. You can trade them, eat them, breed them to sell, etc. Not having rabbits because of rabbit starvation is kind of like not owning a firearm because if you have one you might use it in a gunfight. Rabbits are an asset. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Thu, July 16, 2009 - 8:17 AMAmen.... and the starvation thing is for real survival situations not your daily consumption thing. I hope that at home U have more to eat than just rabbit ! -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Fri, July 17, 2009 - 7:48 PMPlucking chickens sucks ass. It stinks, and the smell gets in your nostrils so you get to smell it for days.
Chickens run around without their heads better than rabbits. It bruises the meat though. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Sat, July 18, 2009 - 7:09 AMLOL ... U must take the chicken by the legs and the tip of each wing , all in one hand ,and after chopping the head off hold them over something , like a piece of tin , or in a 5 gal bucket , until they stop moving to avoid bruising . Don't let go !
Yep .... they smell ! What used to get me was after butchering livestock we would go in to find me Mom , God love her , would have cooked a mess of what ever it was for us to eat ! Of course to me it all tasted like offal ! ( Guts ! ) -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Sat, July 18, 2009 - 9:38 AMafter a day of slaughtering chickens, one of the keys is NOT to have chicken for supper.
a big moose roast with potatoes, carrots and yorkshire pudding is my preferred supper on a day like that.
anything BUT chicken!! -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Sat, July 18, 2009 - 9:55 AMI think if a person raised rabbits and chickens and grew a big garden a small family could survive. You would have to grow the food for the rabbits and chickens as well. Rabbits have between 6 and 12 babies as often as 3 times per year. Having like 6 does and a couple of bucks you could have a lot of offspring to eat. I looked at a lot of websites on rabbit breeding and raising. Food for the rabbits is the real issue. One site says that they are built to eat grasses and things that are low in food value. Feeding them corn would be bad. Alfalpha and Clover would be a good mix with dandelions and grasses mixed in. If you live in a WINTER CLIMATE you might need to stock pile some of your grasses and such to feed them through the cold seasons. Chickens would need some cracked or whole kernal corn but also eat bugs and grasses as well. In a post world crash you will have to raise all of the feed for your animals. I would think this would require some land ,at least a couple of acres. In the end it all boils down to seeds, plants and gardens. I think that Learning to grow things is going to be one of my most important tasks in the coming year. Free -
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Unsu...
Re: Rabbit Starvation
Sat, July 18, 2009 - 11:20 AMRabbits survive best on a diet of good quality hay or fresh grasses and plants (wean them onto fresh slowly if they've been raised on pellets or you'll have very sick rabbits) supplemented with fruit and vegetable scraps, grains, etc. The pelleted diets are mostly for raising animals to slaughtering weight quickly but aren't a good staple diet for breeders or pets. The pelleted diets are also prone to moths, molding, and other storage issues.
I owned a house rabbit for 12 years and his diet was timothy hay with kitchen scraps. He was very healthy throughout his long life. -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Sat, July 18, 2009 - 12:48 PMTimothy is just grass right? That should be pretty easy to grow. I just got off the phone with a feed mill. The guy told me that pellets are made from Alfalpha. He said clover or alfalpha and Timothy would be the best things to grow if you were trying to feed rabbits without pellets. I also read that heat is the biggest concern. Temps over 80 with high humidity are hard on Tame rabbits that are caged. Wild rabbits go underground when its hot to escape the heat. It would be a good idea to insulate your rabbit coop and find a way to keep them cool in hot months. Free -
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Sun, July 19, 2009 - 1:01 AMWe currently have over 50 rabbits and are looking to get them off pellets entirely. While a lot of their food needs can be covered with grasses, you have to be careful because some are so tasty they will shun other foods and lack in required vitamins and minerals. Feeding that many animals is a real PAW concern. I am always looking for recipes for rabbit food, a lot of info was lost in the 50's when pellets hit the market. Another concern is water. While they don't take near as much as say a cow, you need to be able to provide a source of clean water.
As far as the original topic, I think it's been beaten to death. If you think about it though, is their any single food product one could live on alone?
Slaughtering and butchering can be as easy or as difficult as you want it to be. Our rabbits are butchered at 16 weeks and they all have a decent amount of fat on them. I save it as I trim it to be ground back into the meat later for making burger or sausage. I am sure that would change to some degree if we went off pellets entirely. I may be leaving the country for an extended period of time so we needed to rig a method for my wife or daughter to dispatch the rabbits. Neither were comfortable with the whack-in-the-head-with-the-axe-handle method I use (works great, instant death). What I rigged was a low table that the animal is placed on. A cord runs through the table so and is slipped over the animal's neck to secure the body in place. The end is held with the foot, just tight enough to keep the animal from sliding on the table. A second loop, with a sliding knot, is looped over the head. The other end of this is attached to a pedal with about a foot of travel. Once in place, you simply stomp down on the pedal and the spine is severed, again instant and painless.
My wife has been alum tanning hides for a while now and is getting the technique down well. If you are not saving hides for whatever reason, I'd suggest looking at this how-to from Frugal Squirrel's on cleaning and butchering. My rabbits are too big to use his dispatch method. www.frugalsquirrels.com/vb/sho...ead.php the link dies it's under How To photo galley page 5)
Our animals are in individual cages in a barn. With the heat we have been having, we keep a couple fans on. If it get's really hot, we offer frozen water bottles for the animals to lay against or cool 12x12 floor tiles. While neither would be the best option in a PAW, moving the animals to a shaded area with better natural ventilation would. We have never lost a rabbit to the heat and we avoid having does kindle in the hottest or coldest parts of the year.
Another consideration with rabbits, especially preger does, is predators don't actually have to get at the animals to kill or injure them. Rabbits can and do die of fright and can give their warning 'thump' so hard they dislocate there hips and backs. Even rats in the area can stress a mother enough that she will kill her litter.
My 2 pesos
N
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Re: Rabbit Starvation
Sun, July 19, 2009 - 8:02 PMThank you Nathan for a lot of information. Free
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