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What will religion be like after a global catastrophe?

topic posted Fri, May 4, 2012 - 9:38 AM by  Rocky
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I thought I'd raise the question about what religion might be like after some sort of global catastrophe.

The Mythicist Position - video (read the links in the info box)
www.youtube.com/watch

Astrotheology of the Ancients
stellarhousepublishing.com/astr....html

The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ
www.stellarhousepublishing.com/or...pdf

There were over 200 million views with subtitles in over 30 languages of Zeitgeist counted by the end of 2009. I'm not sure what it's up to now.

Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence
freethoughtnation.com/forums/...opic.php

The New Zeitgeist Part 1 Sourcebook Transcript (2010)
www.stellarhousepublishing.com/ze...pdf

Rebuttal to Dr. Chris Forbes concerning 'Zeitgeist, Part 1'
truthbeknown.com/chrisforb...geist.html

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posted by:
Rocky
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  • Unsu...
     
    Religion will be like it always has been

    It will consist of a core of simple, helpful, positive doctrine

    Surrounded by a tight ring of fallible humans who, usually with all the best intentions, try to use fear and guilt to 'motivate' people toward what was intended to be a more positive message.

    There will be a small percentage of people who can see the truth of the message beyond all the hype and dogma.

    There will be a larger percentage who get jaded on the whole thing and lose the message because of those people in power who successfully convince them that the only way to the message is through them that are in power.

    And then the vast majority of the population will just follow. It's human nature to always seek a refuge from the burden of responsability for our own judgment. We want to find someone, or something, with which we can cast our fears, doubts, and judgment aside, and just follow. It's easier. This way we don't have to be responsible for our own missteps and errors in judgment. This is why Obama was called the Messiah, this is why there are so many tedious rules and dogma surrounding most religions, like a one-stop-shop for all of life's questions, even many not pertaining at all to the wellbeing of one's soul.

    An apocalypse only serves to polarize the situation even more. The fervently loyal followers become ever more zealous. The jaded people become more convinced in their atheism.

    that's all. No big deal here. Nothing that hasn't happened during the fall of the previous 23 great human empires.
    • <<Religion will be like it always has been>>

      History proves otherwise. Beliefs change and come and go when a culture has been wiped out due to natural catastrophe. Religion has never been the same. It's constantly changing and evolving even without any sort of catastrophe.

      <<Nothing that hasn't happened during the fall of the previous 23 great human empires.>>

      That is just blatant ignorance of history. One perfect example is the fall of the Roman Empire, which eventually led to the rise of Christianity thanks to Constantine.

      C'mon now, this just basic stuff.
      • Unsu...
         
        you do understand that christianity existed before constantine, yes? He wasn't responsible for the rise of christianity. Someone else was, but for some reason his name slips my memory.... Now who could it possibly be that founded a religion called 'christianity'? Oh well...

        Constantine popularized it for political reasons in his local area, sure. To say that this was the whole story, smacks of a very catholic-centric version of history. There were other christian sects elsewhere, from whence they were able to gather so many gospel records for the first convention when they began to assemble the pieces into a 'bible'. And there have been MANY christian-supporting documents found during that time and since then, which for political, social, or just plain 'already committed to a belief system' reasons, have not been incorporated into the bible nor into various christian religions. So no, that is not the whole story, it's just a nicely simplified story to try to illustrate your point.


        If you think religion is always changing, then I guess you think religion consists only of dogmatic details and trivia. And, by pre-qualifying everything with trivial details and half-histories, you're right. There is only one church in human history where a lady with a red hat always comes in ten minutes late and the pastor's name is Sam, and he comes from a protestant/methodist background but converted to baptistry when he was twenty seven and has a birth mark that looks like elvis's guitar on one side of his neck. So you're right. It's totally unique. Just like every person ever born is totally unique. In that sense you could say that humanity is absolutely unique and ever changing but the reality is that people are predictable as groups, and cultures go through cycles as regularly as an electronic oscillator. So with religion.

        If you look at the reasons why people adhere to religions, if you look at the questions answered by religion, if you look at the types of control used within religions, the kinds of spiritual help people seek to benefit from.... The cycle within a culture where people become more devout or more apathetic or even antipathetic toward religion, and the oft cited reasons and logic behind both movements, VERY often directly related to the prosperity or hardship of the economic or production capacity of the culture, which in turn is heavily influenced by war, famine, disease, natural disaster, and other 'EOTW' scenarios as well as periods of great prosperity...

        People are predictable as metronomes. Religions are just another human relationship, attitude, and belief system of the people. It is therefore, just as predictable. The only meaningful and significant differences occur on an individual basis as each person progresses in their own spiritual relationships and understanding. but that is irrelevant to your precluding parameter restricting the topic to 'religion' specifically.
  • <<you do understand that christianity existed before constantine, yes? He wasn't responsible for the rise of christianity.>>

    Were it not for Constantine Christianity would probably have died out like so many others.

    <<Someone else was, but for some reason his name slips my memory.... Now who could it possibly be that founded a religion called 'christianity'? Oh well... >>

    Try to remember who founded Christianity and when because it wasn't Jesus as he never mentioned 'Christianity" plus, there's no credible evidence of his existence whatsoever.

    <<If you think religion is always changing, then I guess you think religion consists only of dogmatic details and trivia.>>

    Uhh, I guess you're unaware that there are 38,000 different Christian denominations worldwide.

    Yes, religion is always changing. As an example, for nearly 2,000 years Christians were trying to convince people that Jesus really existed and rose from the dead. Today we realize that there's no credible evidence for Jesus or any supernatural biblical claims:

    www.youtube.com/watch

    We now know that religion is largely mythology and astrotheology based on natural phenomena.

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    • Unsu...
       
      ''were it not for constantine, christianity would 'probably'....''

      You cannot win an argument with your own personal conjecture.

      ''Jesus never mentioned the term 'christianity'... ''

      It is well understood that christ founded christianity. Just as confucius never called his philosophy confuciunism... budha never called his philosophy budhism. Those who followed, gave it a name. they named it after the founder, the original teacher of that philosophy. You are retarded if you don't understand this simple, universal human behavior.

      ''There is no evidence that christ ever existed''

      Irrelevant. This is a discussion of the role of religion in people's lives. not the veracity of any religion. Stop sidetracking.

      "38,000 different christian denominations worldwide"

      Thank you for proving my point! As I said before, the small details can vary infinitely, but as you have CLEARLY illustrated, overall they are the same, as per the example that 38,000 different 'religions' are essentially the same religion, with only minor differences in detail. Thank you for supporting my argument. By the way, why the hell did you think that would support your argument at all? You're proving me right. If you want to disagree, you should just shutup so you don't have to be confronted with how wrong you are.

      ''Christianity is evolving'' (paraphrase)

      Christianity is not evolving. Christians still teach the resurrection, the miracles, etc... We are discussing only the fact that religious beliefs exist, and what their roles and relationship to a society are. The fact that our western culture is slowly beginning to find justifications to move away from religious faith is relevant. The justifications for disbelieving cannot be proven nor disproven, just as the justifications for believing cannot be proven nor disproven. What is important is that a society which was once much more adherent to christianity is now moving further away and questioning, doubting, and disbelieving. The religion itself is not evolving or changing, only people's adherence to it.

      What is really happening here is that you are exposing yourself to have a lot of baggage around christianity. this is a discussion of the role of religion in general, and you keep taking it to the realm of 'christianity is false, modern science proves it, and christ never existed'.

      Okay, whatever. So you don't believe in christianity. That has nothing to do with this discussion. You have obviously made a decision which you are still wrestling with internally and seeking to attack those who have chosen differently, chosen to believe. I am inclined to think that un-provoked attacks come from an insecure person who perceives threat too easily. Perhaps in your heart of hearts you find your justifications weak or you are unsure of them. It's not my job to fix your 'mom made me go to church and I still don't like it' issues. If you need help feeling 'okay' about your non-christianity, go get some and stop spilling your baggage and deep psychological/religious identity crisis all over the internet.

      hehehe... that was funny because I just kicked your ass.
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        offline 9
        whew, 1k. Well done.
        • <<You cannot win an argument with your own personal conjecture. >>

          Conjecture? Seriously? LOL, Now, you're just making it up as you go along. The fact of the matter is that Christianity had no power whatsoever until Constantine made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire. Had that not happened there is absolutely no reason to believe Christianity would've survived. You basically claimed that "fall of the previous 23 great human empires" had no change on religion and I proved you wrong with just one prime example. I don't have time to go through them all and waste more time with you hi-jacking my thread off topic into your bigoted religious tirades. If you don't like this thread nobody is twisting your arm forcing you to post in it.

          <<It is well understood that christ founded christianity>>

          LOL, you'll need to provide the evidence for that. Jesus never founded anything at all. Paul is the one who actually founded Christianity not Jesus. He modeled it after "Jesus," (which we now know is a mythical character). Jesus never said the words "Christianity" or "Christian." So, it's like claiming Santa Claus founded Christmas or the Easter bunny founded Easter. Paul was selling Christianity many decades later and the gospels didn't exist for a very long time.

          ''There is no evidence that christ ever existed''

          <<Irrelevant.>>

          Really? I find it very difficult to believe that Jesus could found anything if he never existed. Who's "sidetracking?"

          <<Thank you for proving my point!>>

          LOL, in your dreams! You moved the goal post and forgot the point/quote I was actually addressing. You claimed:

          <<If you think religion is always changing, then I guess you think religion consists only of dogmatic details and trivia.>>

          Religion is always changing over time. You attempt to make it sound like all those 38,000 different denominations are Bosom Buddies when everybody knows they are not. We've even got evangelicals calling Mitt Romney's Mormonism a "CULT." I guess you forgot about the blood bath between the Catholics and Protestants. The fact remains that there are a lot of differences and they absolutely do not agree and they have a long history of killing each other over it.

          <<''Christianity is evolving'' (paraphrase)

          Christianity is not evolving >>

          That view is a complete divorce from reality. It has evolved a considerable amount just in my own lifetime. They have changed many of the things they used to teach - for example some places stopped teaching the whole hell fire and damnation crap. They make changes however they need to in order to get more people/$$$.

          <<The religion itself is not evolving or changing, only people's adherence to it.>>

          Religion is simply an ideology; it's the people's adherence to it that makes the religion and that rigid adherence is always changing and evolving so, thanks for proving MY POINT.

          <<What is really happening here is that you are exposing yourself to have a lot of baggage around christianity. this is a discussion of the role of religion in general, and you keep taking it to the realm of 'christianity is false, modern science proves it, and christ never existed'. >>

          Nice try but, I've been studying religion for 30 years. If you really think that mentioning Constantine as an example of a major religious change is "baggage" then you may want to check yourself. Or, the fact that Christianity wasn't created for many decades AFTER Jesus' supposed death as an evidence that he was not responsible for the founding of the religion, again, you may want to check yourself.

          I think you may be a bigoted fundamentalist Christian that can't handle an honest discussion on religion. I get the sense that you're only here in this thread to shore up your faith at all costs. The "baggage' around Christianity may be all yours.

          <<...hehehe... that was funny because I just kicked your ass.>>

          LOL, yeah it was funny but, more embarrassing for you actually. What I've said here throughout this thread is confirmed by the evidence and facts. Your Psycho-babble is probably just another canned response to toss at anyone who has proved you wrong so you can then make some juvenile claim that you've 'kicked their ass.' It's another sign of religious bigotry.

          You were right about one thing:

          <<So you don't believe in christianity. That has nothing to do with this discussion.>>

          So then why the need to get so personally malicious then? It wasn't necessary at all. You're just incapable of discussing the facts and evidence on the merits - another sign of religious bigotry. For some odd reason you think that by 'kicking my ass' you've won something - well all you've won is more rigid adherence to your own religious bigotry and that's not really anything to be proud of.

          <<Religion will be like it always has been>>

          So in the end you've inadvertently demonstrated that religion is in fact changing with or without you. People today are now more aware than ever before that there's no credible evidence to substantiate supernatural religious claims and if there happens to be a catastrophe less and less people will be turning to religion.

          From a former pastor of 20 years:

          Did Jesus Really Rise From The Dead?
          ffrf.org/legacy/about/bybarker/rise.php

          You might enjoy this too:

          "Life and Liberty for All Who Believe"
          www.theocracywatch.org/audio-video.htm

          Pagan Destruction Chronology (314-870 C.E)
          www.freethoughtnation.com/forum...ic.php

          "38,000 Christian denominations"
          en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ominations

          What Do You Really Know About The Bible?
          50 questions to test your biblical knowledge

          What Do You Know About The Separation of State and Church?
          21 questions to test your knowledge of America's valued principle

          ffrf.org/legacy/quiz/

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            Clearly Christianity did in fact have power, because Constantine revised Roman law IRT to it, for a reason.

            <Had that not happened there is absolutely no reason to believe Christianity would've survived.>

            Absolutely false. Christianity was far more widespread than simply within the Roman Empire. It existed independently of Rome in the Middle East and in Africa.
            • <<Clearly Christianity did in fact have power, because Constantine revised Roman law IRT to it, for a reason. >>

              I already pointed out previously that it was Constantine who made Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire. Until then, they had no power to speak of. Constantine's mother was a Christian who had a major influence on him to push Christianity.

              <<Absolutely false. Christianity was far more widespread than simply within the Roman Empire. It existed independently of Rome in the Middle East and in Africa. >>

              Christianity wasn't nearly as wide spread as Christians would love everyone to believe. Christianity probably would not have survived had Constantine not made it the official religion and passed edicts or laws banning Paganism and eventually destroying their temples, books and killing Pagan priests etc. as pointed out here:

              Pagan Destruction Chronology (314-870 C.E)
              www.freethoughtnation.com/forum...ic.php

              How many has God killed?
              www.freethoughtnation.com/forum...ic.php

              Could easily look this stuff up before having knee-jerk reactions and posting Christian revisionism.

              The whole point in my bringing up Constantine in the first place was that religion is in fact always changing, especially in times of war or natural disasters or politics etc. Thanks to the internet and science more people around the world now know that supernatural religious claims have no credible evidence to back them up and are less likely to be so fanatical over religion in the case of a global catastrophe.

              www.youtube.com/watch

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              • Unsu...
                 
                Rocky, lay down and stay down. You've been soundly thrashed.

                And you still keep bringing up this whole 'Christianity is false'' thing.... Did you want to talk about the role of RELIGION in apocalyptic scenarios, or did you want to try to convince everyone that your mom was wrong for telling you that Jesus could see you masturbating?

                Pretty much everything you've argued since the last time I kicked your ass, has been about irrelevant tangents. I'm still not responding as there has been nothing worth responding to. This is only a reminder that if you want me to hand your ass back to you again, you need to stay on topic and give me some worthwhile, relevant material to work with.
                • Ah, the bigoted fundamentalist Christian is back to shore up his faith at all costs. You have quite soundly been proven wrong every step of the way but, don't let the facts stand in your way.

                  <<And you still keep bringing up this whole 'Christianity is false'' thing>>

                  Yeah, I know it must be difficult for you to comprehend but, the fact that there exists no credible evidence to substantiate the claims is actually relevant since more people are aware of these facts now more than ever before. That means that in the event of natural disasters people are less and less likely to rely on religion. It's just basic common sense - of course, I'm sure you've got loads of your Xian revisionist views to counter that yet, no valid evidence to back up your views. The question is, why are you so overly sensitive to your religion being exposed as unsubstantiated when most people already know it (except you)? Why do you even care unless the reason is because you're a bigoted fundamentalist Christian out to shore up your faith at all costs?

                  <<I'm still not responding as there has been nothing worth responding to>>

                  Nobody cares about your opinion or revisionist views. You're just trolling up my thread like any other bigoted ass would. You've offered nothing of value so far but, leave to you to have all the arrogance and conceit to think you have. All you've offered have been knee-jerk reactions and utter ignorance. What's really funny is you're really proud of it. You're just another home-schooled psycho with a room temperature IQ. Nobody cares what you think as you've proven yourself unreliable & untrustworthy on this subject.

                  I was looking for an honest, open and objective discussion - not some bigoted asshole trying to play king of the hill.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    yeah... you keep talking but I have yet to hear you say anything.

                    You're still attacking christianity like it somehow matters whether christianity is true or false.

                    I thought you wanted to talk about the role of religion in a global catastrophe.

                    There are categories of 'apocalyptic fantasy' folks.... They foresee a future where they wake up to pandemonium and all the powers-that-be are utterly nonexistent, and it's just down to them and their ability to survive... an arena where they invariably believe they have some magical 'edge' over everyone around them, because they watched a couple youtube videos on making fire with sticks and snuck a multi-tool into their work desk drawer for 'preparedness'...

                    It stems from feelings of powerlessness and victimization. Some people are bogged down by debt, and they dream of the financial system collapsing. Others are corporate bitches and they dream of a world where the heirarchy of economic power turns to simpler crafts where they feel they may excell in their present day hobby time. Hell I've even heard fat chicks talk about how being pretty would be detrimental to survival 'post-SHTF' because you'd be more prone to rape.... somehow vindicating themselves for being ugly and irritable all these years. In any event, there is this category of 'escapist' survivalist wannabes who like to fantasize and postulate about how much more 'free' the world will be once the four horsemen swoop in like a gaggle of fairy godmothers for them. It's pretty easy to see the lack of judgment and underdeveloped sense of reality present in these folks. In all honesty, they would be a danger to themselves and those around them if the structures holding them in their subservient places were suddenly missing.

                    And then there's you. You say you want to talk about the role of religion in cataclysmic circumstances, but really, you're just wet-dreaming of some future where christianity is completely nonexistent. You keep going back to that. Despite it's place as the third most prominent religious belief system among humanity, you point to a couple self-published opinion articles and homemade youtube infomercials like the downfall of christianity is two rainy Sundays away.

                    The fact that you won't admit being beaten in your own thread doesn't help your credibility. You've pretty well established what kind of idiot you are, to everyone in this tribe. But let's say you're right, and the whole world is on the verge of denouncing christianity irrevocably. So what? Can we please, for the love of god, move on with the thread topic now, or did you not have anywhere to go after making your very weak and utterly nonsensical point? Do you have anything to CONTRIBUTE as you accuse everyone who disagrees with you as being a troll, or did you really just come here to christian-bash and work out some of your obviously abundant personal issues?
                    • <<yeah... you keep talking but I have yet to hear you say anything.>>

                      Your selective perception fails you.

                      <<You're still attacking christianity like it somehow matters whether christianity is true or false.>>

                      I haven't actually "attacked" Christianity. You're just overly sensitive to any hint of criticism of it because you can't handle an open and honest discussion of Christianity.

                      I suppose pointing out the fact that Joseph Smith lied would be considered an "attack" by you too. Pointing out the facts and evidence may not actually be an attack, otherwise, from your line of reasoning telling the truth or exposing it is considered an "attack." That's YOUR own issue that YOU need to deal with.

                      freethoughtnation.com/forums/...opic.php

                      <<I thought you wanted to talk about the role of religion in a global catastrophe.>>

                      The title of the thread is "What will religion be like after a global catastrophe?" There may not be much of a role for religion at all. We can also draw from the historical past to give us clues as well. The fact is that religion has always been changing due to war, natural disasters, politics etc.

                      I didn't come here to argue and certainly not get personal with anyone but, I can if need be. I guess I should've realized that many survivalists would be religious fanatics.

                      I do think some here & I got off to a bad start by simply misunderstanding me. Text in a forum doesn't always translate well and may easily be misunderstood especially when knee-jerk emotional reactions are involved.

                      <<...feelings of powerlessness and victimization. Some people are bogged down by debt, and they dream of the financial system collapsing. Others are corporate bitches...

                      ...there is this category of 'escapist' survivalist wannabes who like to fantasize and postulate about how much more 'free' the world will be once the four horsemen swoop in like a gaggle of fairy godmothers for them. It's pretty easy to see the lack of judgment and underdeveloped sense of reality present in these folks.>>

                      I can agree with that.

                      <<And then there's you. You say you want to talk about the role of religion in cataclysmic circumstances, but really, you're just wet-dreaming of some future where christianity is completely nonexistent.>>

                      LOL, disgusting, juvenile and wrong as always. I wouldn't want all religion to be "non-existent" - just the bigoted, fundamentalist, fanaticism. I enjoy religion for what it really is = MYTHOLOGY.

                      <<You keep going back to that. Despite it's place as the third most prominent religious belief system among humanity>>

                      LOL, it also got that rank by killing around 250 million people too. One good reason to leave it in the dark ages where it belongs:

                      freethoughtnation.com/forums/...opic.php

                      <<you point to a couple self-published opinion articles and homemade youtube infomercials like the downfall of christianity is two rainy Sundays away. >>

                      LOL, more selective perception noted. People are leaving Christianity and other religions in droves because they now know that there's no valid evidence to substantiate the claims. Nobody appreciates being lied to. The video below has been viewed by over 200 million people worldwide by the end of 2009 - not sure what the count is up to now but, the transcript has been translated into over 30 languages. People are obviously quite interested.

                      Zeitgeist Part 1
                      www.youtube.com/watch

                      <<The fact that you won't admit being beaten in your own thread doesn't help your credibility.>>

                      Ah, that juvenile 'king of the hill' thing again. More selective perception. I haven't been beaten and I'm not even trying to win anything. Realize that if you don't like this thread that nobody is twisting your arm forcing you to post here.

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                      • Unsu...
                         
                        *******I haven't actually "attacked" Christianity. You're just overly sensitive to any hint of criticism of it because you can't handle an open and honest discussion of Christianity.***********

                        What purpose is served by you wanting to "discuss" anything at all about a religion that you want no part of?



                        *********I suppose pointing out the fact that Joseph Smith lied**********

                        I'm guessing you read something on the internet about Smith and based on that you have decided that it's got to be factual.




                        *********That's YOUR own issue that YOU need to deal with. ************

                        That seems awfully specious coming from someone who has nothing connecting himself at all to these putative topics.
                        Seems to me that your issues are what's driving you and your saying that 1K has issues is just a case of transference.

                        You wanting to discuss some religion with which you have nothing to do, would be like me wanting to discuss your parents.


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                offline 9
                First off, I'm not Christian. Secondly, you're flaming wrong.

                Christianity was quite widespread, and there was a whole world outside of Rome. Western History focuses on Rome, but in the Middle East there were Christians from Jerusalem to Yemen to Libya, not just under Roman authority. Arab Christians in Iraq, the Lakhmids established a kingdom in 266, well before Constantine.

                "Christianity probably would not have survived had Constantine not made it the official religion and passed edicts or laws banning Paganism and eventually destroying their temples, books and killing Pagan priests etc. as pointed out here: "

                Probably is conjecture. That's the freaking definition of the word.

                My knee jerk reaction is to ignorant retardation, and nothing about my intensive academic and professional study of the Middle East and North Africa bears any resemblance to "Christian Revisionism", as most of my professors were Muslims.

                'freethoughnation.com' is a poor substitute for college dude. You should probably go.
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                  offline 9
                  And Jews, I've had at least three or four Jewish professors too.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    Yeah... he's not a christian. And me, I haven't stepped in to defend christianity yet. I've only pointed out a handful of the very many holes in your own rhetoric.

                    Which kind of makes you look like more of an ass for labeling everyone who disagrees with you as a zealously blinded hardcore christian. Now you know we're just logical people from various paths in life, and you are universally losing face with each one of us.

                    Eventually you're going to have to make a decision. You are going to have to realize how stupid you've been all along, and calm down, or your defense mechanisms will kick in long before your ability for rational judgment curbs you and you will make even more asinine statements before quitting the tribe and running away to troll some other place.

                    I will be surprised if you last another week here.
                    • .
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                      offline 9
                      No, I think he's such a victim of the Dunning Kruger effect that he's going to persist ad nauseum, continuing to twist every discussion into his pet soapbox issue about how stupid Christianity is. There's a whole boatload of Hindus in the world, but you'll probably never once hear him talk about how there's no evidence for elephant-faced gods with 8 arms.
                    • <<I haven't stepped in to defend christianity yet.>>

                      If defending Christianity means so much to you why don't you start a thread in either of these Tribes and we can do that there. It's not really what this thread is for.

                      POLITICS & RELIGION
                      tribes.tribe.net/politicsnreligion

                      Zeitgeist
                      tribes.tribe.net/zeitgeistnow

                      <<Which kind of makes you look like more of an ass for labeling everyone who disagrees with you as a zealously blinded hardcore christian>>

                      Not really, turns out you ARE a Christian out to shore up your faith at all costs.

                      <<Eventually you're going to have to make a decision. You are going to have to realize how stupid you've been all along, and calm down, or your defense mechanisms will kick in long before your ability for rational judgment curbs you and you will make even more asinine statements before quitting the tribe and running away to troll some other place.>

                      Ah, you should follow your own advice and check yourself.

                      ;
                • I never said you were a Christian nor was I wrong.

                  Again, Christianity wasn't NEARLY as widespread as we are led to believe. Being "widespread" doesn't equate to large populations either, especially prior to the 4th century before Constantine.

                  The Lakhmids were wiped out by the Persians. Lakhmid leader asked for assistance from the Constantius II Roman Empire in 325 but, they didn't get there in time. The Roman Empire often sent troops to protect Christian cities and kingdoms - SPECIAL THANKS TO CONSTANTINE who made all of that possible. So, thanks for inadvertently proving my point.

                  conjecture: "the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof."
                  dictionary.reference.com/brows...ecture

                  You were the one who was "flaming wrong" as the evidence and facts are on my side. The fact remains and will continue to be that were it not for Constantine, Christianity would probably not have survived.

                  <<"Christianity probably would not have survived had Constantine not made it the official religion and passed edicts or laws banning Paganism and eventually destroying their temples, books and killing Pagan priests etc. as pointed out here: "

                  Probably is conjecture. That's the freaking definition of the word. >>

                  LOL, you should just stop as you obviously don't understand what conjecture is or you're utterly ignorant of the facts. The below is from:

                  Pagan Destruction Chronology (314-870 C.E)
                  www.freethoughtnation.com/forum...ic.php

                  324
                  Emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. At Dydima, Asia Minor, he sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its Pagan priests to death. He also evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Hellenic Temples.

                  326
                  Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc.

                  330
                  Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan Temples in Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.

                  335
                  Constantine sacks many Pagan Temples of Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of "all magicians and soothsayers". Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatros.

                  341
                  Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

                  346
                  New large - scale persecutions against the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as... "magician".

                  353
                  An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifices and "idols".

                  354
                  A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. First burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.

                  356
                  A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all "idolaters".

                  357
                  Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).

                  359
                  In Skythopolis, Syria, christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

                  361 to 363
                  Religious tolerance and restoration of Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.

                  363
                  Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).

                  364
                  Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination ("sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi uriositas"). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, even private ones.

                  365
                  An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids Gentile officers of the army to command christian soldiers.

                  370
                  Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of Gentiles throughout the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other Pagans, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of cities of the Eastern Empire. All friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.

                  372
                  Emperor Valens orders the governor of Asia Minor to exterminate the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom.

                  373
                  New prohibition of all methods of Divination. The term "Pagan" (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the christians to lessen the Gentiles.

                  375
                  The Temple of God Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down.

                  380
                  On 27th February, Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that "all the various nations, which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion, which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter". Non-christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind". In another edict Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe in the christian god and outlaws all disagreements with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the Pagan Temples of his area. Christian priests lead the mob against the Temple of Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.

                  381
                  On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives all rights of christians that return to the Pagan Religion. Throughout the Eastern Empire, Pagan Temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even simple visits to the Temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the Temple of Goddess Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the Temples of Sun and Artemis into stables.

                  382
                  "Hellelu-jah" (Glory to Yahweh) is imposed in the christian mass.

                  384
                  Emperor Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect, Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated christian, to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the Temples of the Gentiles in Northern Greece and Asia Minor.

                  385 to 388
                  Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop, "Saint" Marcellus with his gangs scour the countryside, sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic Temples, shrines and altars. Amongst others they destroy the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Gentiles from all sides of the Empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

                  386
                  Emperor Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of sacked Pagan Temples.

                  388
                  Public talks on religious subjects are also outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous Epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius, with a hope that the few remaining Hellenic Temples will be respected and spared.

                  389 to 390
                  All non-christian calenders are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood into Middle Eastern and Egyptian cities, destroying statues, altars, Libraries and Pagan Temples, whilst Gentiles are lynched. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesques the Pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The christian mob profanes the cult images.

                  There's plenty more but, I'll just stop here as I've quite handily proven my case and my point, which is well documented.

                  <<My knee jerk reaction is to ignorant retardation, and nothing about my intensive academic and professional study of the Middle East and North Africa bears any resemblance to "Christian Revisionism", as most of my professors were Muslims. >>

                  Sorry to hear you wasted your time and money.

                  ;
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    .
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                    offline 9
                    Ok, thanks for letting the world know what a raging idiot you are.

                    First, your "probably" is exactly what I said it was, "conjecture" - "An opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information"

                    If I wasn't clear enough by stating 'your usage of the word probably is the very definition of conjecture' then I'm sorry you're a moron.

                    I didn't prove your point at all - you're just too ignorant and soapbox-addled to understand.

                    "he Roman Empire often sent troops to protect Christian cities and kingdoms - SPECIAL THANKS TO CONSTANTINE who made all of that possible. So, thanks for inadvertently proving my point."

                    This is patently ludicrous. The HRE's support of Christians does not mean Christians would have been wiped out without it. That's an elementary conclusive fallacy. Its perfectly possible that had it not been for the adoption of Christianity by Romans, that Islam would have never been established (as this adoption created an alien flavor for the Semites) and that Christianity would have been the cementing line characterizing the east/west conflicts. We have no idea. Your 'probably' is conjecture.

                    You haven't proven a point, other than you're massively subject to confirmation bias, and you don't understand basic Aristotelian logic.

                    Copy and pasting timelines does not replace years of formal inquiry into a matter, and none of it has to do with how widespread a religion was. You also clearly don't understand the history of the Lakhmids, who were not annexed by the Sassanids until 300 years after Constantine - they maintained their religious traditions until the *Muslim* armies conquered the Sassanids.

                    Christianity was very widespread, period. From Spain, to Africa, to Armenia, to the Arabian Peninsula, and even in India, prior to Constantine. Did Constantine make Christianity a driving force in the western world, yes, he did, but that has NOTHING to do with your absurd claims.
  • im sure a lot of local religious groups will become radical zealots
    some charismatic fucker with a warped message and agenda
    will step up and gain control of them
    blaming the catastrophe on gods vengeance and saying his new
    congregation is charged with wiping out the evils for god
    and the horrors they will do in gods name will make everything else
    seem quite normal and bland
    same as any other time some religious group decides it is superior
    and needs to do gods work for him
    just look at history, youll see it
    • lets face it, the majority of the human population cant say "Baaa" on their own
      they flock to whomever seems to be the most powerful at the time
      or any dickwad that acts like he knows what he is doing
      how many voted for obuttface just cuz he was cute or black
      im sorry but the world and especially the us seem to be suffering
      from acute lacks of brains, spines and balls
      even here many bitch but do we push for something new or claim its too late to try?
      its only too late when youre dead
    • I agree with you Beast. That will surely happen. That's why the internet is so important for exposing these cults and the fact that they can't substantiate their claims with valid evidence.

      ;
      • Unsu...
         
        Rocky, you're right. Joseph smith did lie about some things. Heck, as Mayor of Nauvoo, he even abused his political power to mob and smash a printing press who expressed an opinion against him. And Brigham Young regularly sent young MARRIED men away on five-year church missions in europe, and would then take their wives, annul the marriage with his higher authority, and marry the women to himself. He was still marrying himself to teenagers well into his 70's, lack of Viagra notwithstanding, to finish his life with some 47 wives all told. Joseph Smith had 33 known wives, some of which were even kept secret from his first wife, although other women were still sealed to him post-mortem. And here you thought all the dirt you had on Mormons was the Mountain Meadows Massacre... lol.

        And somehow, I'm still mormon and I'm still okay with that. And you're even further off base than I had given you credit for.

        So now that we've exposed my 'cult' for the wretched and nasty controller of humanity that it is.... Let's look at some other, equally real facts:

        Members of my church have kept at least a one-year food storage supply for the entire family, for over 100 years. It's a way of life for us. Canning and putting up foods are a normal family activity. Even as I type this, there's a dehydrator working on some apples next to me on the kitchen counter. I just changed out a new batch when I got home from work tonight lol. We have a massive pantry full of food, we have a home grain mill, countless canning supplies, and enough food stored up to feed our own family and possibly a few more people for at least a year. And we (as a church) have canning factories for the use of members, who can buy anything from grain to hot chocolate mix to honey or fruit at COST... and use the full-scale facilities to make our own industrially canned food storage. We also have additional 'storehouses' for the welfare and aid of any who need it.

        In WWI the U.S. government faced a resource crisis in a drought summer and were at the brink of needing to pull their troops home in full retreat from lack of ability to feed them on the frontline. Can you imagine how different your world history would be today, if the Mormons hadn't come to the rescue with over 200,000 bushels of wheat, sold to the government for WELL below the going market value? We basically only asked them to cover costs.

        In the first full week of the Hurricane Katrina aftermath, we were the ONLY humanitarian program on the ground and operational. We were the first ones in. In fact, we own fleets of semi-trucks pre-stocked with humanitarian aid products for the sole purpose of being available to dispense anywhere that is needed. Kind of like a 'good samaritan' program on steroids. We don't ask anything in return. We are one of the wealthiest corporations in the world and we consider it simply something that anyone who believes in following Christ's model of service and aid, should do if they have the means. We have the means.

        Go back a little further into the Mexican-American War, when American forces were stretched thin and getting their asses kicked.... The Mormons had just barely arrived in Utah as pioneer settlers, and upon seeing the need for help, assembled a battalion of volunteers who scarcely had time to take their boots off and sit down for a bit, willingly marched all the way from SLC to San Diego, controlling and occupying the then-mexican city and becoming instrumental in the U.S.'s leverage for the Gadsden Purchase. It was some of those Mormons who later headed north to Sacramento and worked at Sutter's mill, discovering the gold that set off the California Gold rush of 1847.

        Did you know that even today, we Mormons are actively and constantly drilling and preparing for any kind of collapse eventuality, up to and including the absence of governmental structure? Yes we are very self governing. I have a list of people I must contact and check up on in the event of a local disaster. I report to someone who has me on their short list. It's like a geometric pyramid. Within twenty minutes, even without telephones, the local bishop has a full damage or status report on every member of his flock. Search parties are organized, resources are allocated. Not one mormon was caught in harm's way in the Hurricane Katrina.

        Last spring I was out in Missouri, near Poplar Bluff when that slew of tornadoes including the one that leveled Joplin, came through my area. I had two close calls on my way to the meeting house with my truck and chainsaw. An elderly couple was already being rescued by boat ( a ward member's fishing boat, the gov't was still scrambling to figure out what was going on) when the Mississippi levi broke out past Dexter and homes were being flooded out all the way up to the foothills. We quickly figured out who was stranded, people who lived on roads with creek fords and such... Parties were organized and everyone was accounted for. Those who had safe homes generously and openly took in those less fortunate who were without power or battling home damage related to the weather.

        Most of the districts (we call them a 'stake') within about 200 mile radius to Joplin ended up organizing humanitarian relief parties consisting of completely self-sufficient men (bring your own tent, water, food, chainsaw fuel, and vehicle fuel to get there and back- Joplin had none of these things and we could not add to their burden) Organized into likewise self-sufficient groups, anywhere from 8 to 20 usually, from different districts or 'stakes'.... We rotated out so that there were always men out there with 4x4 trucks, chainsaws, medical and hygiene and food/water to pass around.

        I signed up for two of them but was unable to attend the second time due to flooding in my own neighborhood (not me, I built on a hill but my neighbors and local town needed me)

        You don't see it much on the news because publicity is not in our agenda. We're not looking for awareness or funds.

        Take it to less extremes. My wife and I built our own cabin out in the woods and had our first baby, brought it home there. Things were tough and we were thousands of miles from family. Without even a mentioned word, people we knew from church were bringing over meals and taking our laundry, helping us with the life adjustment and asking if we needed any help with anything. The womenfolk of the ward had already organized meal plans and assigned different days to different women. It wasn't much burden for any one person. Together, it made a huge difference to us.

        California, 2010: Proposition 8 is passed. The gay-supportes and far left are livid with the Mormons for their open and organized support of a DEMOCRATIC VOTE of the people of California to ban homosexual marriage. Many of our church meeting houses were vandalized and some, including one near my house in Provo at the time, were the targets of drive-by-shootings. The Temple in Oakland CA was besieged by a protesting mob which organized quickly. Weapons were seen within the picket lines of protesters, some molotov cocktails were carried and ready, but none were lit, at least according to eyewitness accounts. Before the local authorities could organize an effective peacekeeping and riot-control force, more than 500 mormon young men showed up, including many large Samoans and others with the very distinctive and imposing Polynesian stature. They locked arms at the gate in a line to completely flank the mob and said in no uncertain terms that they had absolutely no hesitancy to give up their own lives in defense of God's Temple. This had a very sobering effect on an angry mob on the verge of violence. They became self conscious, they realized the gravity of what they were about to do. They dispersed and went home. By the time the riot police arrived in their black busses, there was no need for them.

        I strongly doubt there is a government in the world that can beat the Mormons for their ability to organize and get things done. Their fiscal responsibility as a corporation is second to none. The sense of camaraderie and willingness to lend a hand might take backseat to the Amish, but probably nobody else.

        We have been actively preparing for every eventuality of the 'end of the world' including self-governance, emergency preparedness, and self defense. We are heavily armed, have more resources than most countries, and a combined food and resource storage that would outlast a siege by the entire rest of the world.

        ....

        ...

        I believe you were saying something about how christian religions will decline into nothingness during a catastrophe?

        Please. Tell me more.
        • I used to be based up over the Wales/England border near Liverpool. Near by (just a short way up the M6 motorway from there) was one of the biggest Mormon churchs in the UK. Young people would come to Britain to spread the word amongst the poor heathen masses. These young people where invariably good mannered, well dressed and remained polite even if their message was rejected. They where a credit to their church, families and society.

          I just thought I'd mention that.
        • <<I strongly doubt there is a government in the world that can beat the Mormons for their ability to organize and get things done. Their fiscal responsibility as a corporation is second to none. The sense of camaraderie and willingness to lend a hand might take backseat to the Amish, but probably nobody else.

          We have been actively preparing for every eventuality of the 'end of the world' including self-governance, emergency preparedness, and self defense. We are heavily armed, have more resources than most countries, and a combined food and resource storage that would outlast a siege by the entire rest of the world.>>

          No doubt and there are many other cults that have been preparing for the 'end times' for decades while others have probably always been preparing all along. I already concede to Beasts previous comment about the crazy religious fanatics and cults.

          <<I believe you were saying something about how christian religions will decline into nothingness during a catastrophe? Please. Tell me more. >>

          My original post made no mention of a specific religion but, mentioned religion in general. You had a knee-jerk reaction when I correctly pointed out the facts about Constantine, remember? Your claims were easily proven false and you had a knee-jerk reaction to that too.

          No doubt, cults will be cults, but when the facts are exposed and the people have access to the truth about a given religion they realize that there's no credible reason to believe. The Mormons can prepare all they want but, it won't help much when nobody believes in it because they're aware of all the lies.

          Cults utilize assorted psychological manipulation techniques. Fundamentalists place a high priority on doctrinal conformity. Once these are exposed the religion loses credibility.

          Recovery from Mormonism
          www.exmormon.org

          The Dangers Of Mormonism Revealed
          nomormoninwhitehouse.blogspot.com/2...ml

          Cult Corruption
          CultCorruption.tribe.net

          Mormonism -- A Dangerous Cult
          www.youtube.com/watch

          ;
          • Unsu...
             
            You still don't get it, Rocky.

            Mormons have been around for 175 years. There are 15 million of them spread through 170 of the 194 recognized nations of the world.

            Like many mormons, I DO see the lies. I see the corruption. I see the flaws in the very foundation. I think anyone with half a brain, belonging to ANY religion, should be able to recognize that there is no such thing as a perfect person, let alone a perfect congregation of people, to be found in the world.

            Look at it this way: People are flawed. People are full of problems, deceptions, carefully constructed public images hiding skeletons in the closet. Nevertheless, they're still deserving of God's love, and none of us are any more qualified to reject them than God. You can, and should, still embrace them for their goodness, encourage their growth, love what is to be loved about them.

            So with a church, which is run by those same flawed people. It's going to exhibit flaws. That doesn't mean you cannot embrace, support, and celebrate all the many, many good attributes it has to offer.

            Provided that a church is not centralized around fear and control, but emphasizes a message of forgiveness, growth, non-judgment of others and love for all.... I believe a person is generally far better off adhering to that support network which teaches these things, than to sit at home judging those same people, becoming jaded and bitter and only seeing the world's flaws.

            That's the difference between you and me.

            And, as a church, the mormons have been burned out by mobs, we have been at war with u.s. citizens as well as indian nations. We are the ONLY group in the united states, including the wild indians, to ever have an official state issued extermination order against us. Governor Boggs of Missouri issued that back in the early 19th century and it was not recanted until 1978. Yes, until 1978 it was perfectly legal to kill a mormon in the state of missouri, for the mere fact that they were mormon.

            We have faced desert famines and droughts, economic collapse, plagues of disease and massacres by mob. None of it has slowed us down, let alone caused any appreciable diminishing of our numbers, which continue to grow at an exponential rate from the original 6 members in Fayette, NY in 1830.

            I can only assume the term 'cult' is used loosely to describe anyone who adheres to any sort of belief at all, from your bitter and lonely perspective, since you have offered nothing to back this claim and I am quite open about my beliefs. Still, cult or not, I'm having a hard time buying this whole 'christian religions will die off during a collapse' when I have not just conjecture, but historic proof of at least one christian church which has seen all you describe and worse, and only continued to grow stronger.
        • .
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          offline 9
          Hey 1k - there were several humanitarian elements on the ground in the first week post-Katrina, including the US military, which evacuated over tens of thousands of people within 4 days after the hurricane. www.msnbc.msn.com/id/917561...7_OyMWwUo4
          • Unsu...
             
            My mistake. We were among the first.

            I do remember one news reporter trying to 'expose' the complete inadequacy of FEMA by interviewing some folks about the aid that was available to them. One guy said 'There has only been TWO groups come in my area to offer any kind of assistance: The Mormons, and the LDS church." -made me laugh, we're one and the same.
            • .
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              offline 9
              That's probably true in some areas - I know the federal government was focused on the high density areas, whereas the Mormons went out into the swamps and into St Bernard Parish. As far as I know, there are *still* ongoing Mormon efforts in those areas.

              When I eventually start my charity I definitely plan on hiring Mormon disaster management planners. There's no doubt that the model you guys have, and the operational procedures that seem to be pretty standardized, are well worth utilizing.
              • Unsu...
                 
                You'll be in for a loop if you try lol.

                There is very little that is 'standardized' about it except a few principles.

                There is a heirarchy of 'help' to be rendered, an order of expectation, as it were.... Say someone came to the church in need of help, whether from a financial disaster, a natural disaster, whatever.

                First, the person in authority looks at the person needing help and tries to ascertain that person's ability to help themselves. Sometimes a realignment of perspective or priority is all that is truly warranted.

                Step two: Family. A person's family is the next in line to render help, if they are in a position to do so and if the relationship dynamics are such that this would not cause damaging strain on a situation.

                Step three, the church. First we look at our local resources... maybe a contractor in the ward can hire some labor... maybe the boy scouts can come do some service projects and help out.

                Money is generally the last line of defense. We don't just throw money at a problem and hope it goes away. We exhaust every other reasonable option first, and we use money at a minimum.

                The way these resources are allocated is at the sole discrepancy of the local bishops and stake presidents. They are not specially trained for that job. Nor are they elected by popular vote. They are regular men with regular day jobs like you and me. They've been asked by their church to take on additional capacities and they're not paid to do it. Once again, that doctrine of christian self-sacrifice in the service of others comes into play very strongly here. So really, our disaster prep program boils down to putting good men in places of power and instilling in them a sense of morality and accountability and a love for the people they are set to protect and serve. that's the big secret recipe.

                The checks and accountability throughout the system are VERY seldom abused, and they are mainly instilled by religious doctrine of accountability to God for one's actions, as well as the expectation that a true follower of Christ would behave as christ would, especially in a religious capacity acting as an agent for His church.

                Many people are surprised at the nobility and good judgment that people are capable of when they are elevated to their best potential. Where I come from, it happens on a daily basis and is essentially relied upon for the daily operation of everything the Mormons do. There is no certification process for preachers. In fact you cannot even go to anyone and tell them you want to be the next bishop, it doesn't work that way. We rely almost exclusively on faith in the goodness of people, and direct revelation to help us discern the best decisions to make, whether it's an individual wondering which of two job offers to take in their professional career, or a stake president considering which of a handful of men to place in charge of one of his wards for the next five years. And while there is always an element of human error, misunderstanding, and probably some corruption... You can't really argue with the overall results that my church has achieved over the last one and three quarter centuries. But on the same hand, you can see how this model would be very difficult to incorporate into a governmental or other organization structure. The prerequisite indoctrination of accountability and morality as well as self-sacrifice is hard to duplicate without a populace willing to voluntarily take upon themselves such teachings as truth, from which you can draw out the best cards to act as leaders.
                • .
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                  offline 9
                  I know other mormons besides you, and from what I understand there's more to it than that - especially for the distro efforts. That fleet of trucks, for instance, is not managed, dispatched, and maintained by ad-hoc measures
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    There's more to it than that, in a sense. Yes, we do hire out contracted companies to paint our buildings and drive our relief trucks.

                    But essentially, that's all there is to it. The decision making is all done by the church, through these 'ad-hoc' measures. The authority for making those decisions is all derived in the same manner.

                    Nothing is as simple as it sounds, when you really zoom in to the details. But as an overview, this is pretty much how it works.
  • Unsu...
     
    The Pastfarians will be vindicated.
    • Unsu...
       
      If I wasn't already a Mormon, I'd be a Pastafarian.

      I especially like their doctrine concerning the real reasons for global warming. Couldn't agree more.
      • Unsu...
         
        We need more pirates.

        The absence of pirates is also linked to high concentrations of estrogen in adolescent males.
        • Unsu...
           
          I noticed we still haven't heard anything but crickets from the peanut gallery... What happened to Rocky, our original poseur....er- I mean original poster?

          Could it be that I was right, he lasted just under a week from the time that I told him I'd be surprised if he lasted another week?

          Actually, I'm only pretending to be shocked. Genuine surprise doesn't happen to the omniscient, but it's fun to act it out sometimes.
          • ^

            LOL, in your dreams. I merely see any attempt at a reasonable discussion here impossible due to the extremely bigoted positions of the fanatically religious here. My comments on Constantine remain sound and unchallenged and I don't see that changing since my position is very well documented based on the most credible evidence and facts. No amount of knee-jerk reactions and wishful thinking or religiously selective perceptions coming from religious fanatics can change the facts.

            I have re-learned that most survivalists, preppers and 'end timers' etc are religious fanatics, which comes as no surprise. So, I see no reason to post in this thread anymore as it's a complete waste of my time.

            Why Young People Are Becoming Secular
            www.huffingtonpost.com/rui-da...86.html

            Zeitgeist Part 1 Sourcebook, Transcript & Sources
            www.stellarhousepublishing.com/ze...pdf

            ;
            • "
              I have re-learned that most survivalists, preppers and 'end timers' etc are religious fanatics, which comes as no surprise. So, I see no reason to post in this thread anymore as it's a complete waste of my time. "

              Dude, really, I'm one of those ' survivalists, preppers and 'end timers' etc ', and I'm no religious fanatic, well not in the sense you're thinking of.... I'm fanatic when it comes to surviving daily life, and nothing will come in my way to stop me, even when it kills me. And if you think I'm an egocentric SOB, well then you got it dead wrong. My wife rely on the fact that I am a survivor, and she trusts me blindly so she hasn't got to think about all the bad things that can happen to me, her and our soon to be born girl.

              So, rethink your stance and talk like a grown man, not like a adolescent, brainwashed High school kid.
            • .
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              offline 9
              Rocky, nothing about your statement IRT to Constantine remain sound. The historical facts are not what's in question, its your absurd claim to be able to see into the past and determine counterfactual outcomes that fly in the face of what was actually going on at the time.

              And no one in this thread, or in this tribe, has expressed any fanatical tendencies in the least. Certainly not 1k, who is a moderate mormon, by any measure, or myself, given my absolute secular agnosticism.
              • Wow, you guys really need to lighten up - I never said "all survivalists are fanatics" and I certainly never implied that everybody here was either - what the hell is wrong you people? You guys are hell bent on an endless supply of knee-jerk reactions.

                Many are though and you are one of them. Denial is to be expected as religious fanatics rarely admit it.

                re Constantine; no, nothing you've said has changes anything and any attempt to claim otherwise is just spinning your wheels against the well known and well documented facts. So, as I said previously, I will waste no more of time discussing religion with you since you've got your head so far up your bigoted ass. You are nothing more than a troll here.
                • .
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                  offline 9
                  So now I'm a bigot? please, what bigoted statements have I made?

                  And you seem to be entirely without grasp on reality:


                  "I merely see any attempt at a reasonable discussion here impossible due to the extremely bigoted positions of the fanatically religious here"

                  "I never said "all survivalists are fanatics" and I certainly never implied that everybody here was either "

                  Wow.

                  And you can cite all the facts about Constantine you want, they don't buttress your position in the least.
  • Religiosity Declines Worldwide
    www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...53.html

    American Confidence In Organized Religion At All Time Low
    www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...00.html

    How Will The Shocking Decline Of Christianity In America Affect The Future Of This Nation?

    "Is Christianity in decline in America? When you examine the cold, hard numbers it is simply not possible to come to any other conclusion. Over the past few decades, the percentage of Christians in America has been steadily declining. This has especially been true among young people..."
    endoftheamericandream.com/archi...nation

    The ARIS Study: Christianity On The Decline In America
    www.internetmonk.com/archive...-america

    Christianity on the decline
    www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...rvey.html

    Why Is Christianity on the Decline in America?
    thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/...merica/

    ;
    • Rocky, please feel free to post as many links as you like. I stopped following them almost imediately this thread was begun because its all a bit 'samey'and boring.
      I have tried to understand why you've resurrected this thread but can only come to the conclusion that you suffer from mental illness. In itself your condition wouldn't be an issue at all and I'm sure many of the other tribe members would be more supportive if only you would try to moderate your dependence on the huffingtonpost and spend more time getting out in the sunshine meeting people.
      Please get well soon.
      • +1 Mike
        • Mike, ad homs, fallacies and personal attacks are never good arguments as it merely demonstrates the weakness of your own position since you clearly have absolutely nothing to offer. If you don't like this thread feel free to ignore it as nobody is twisting your arm forcing you to post here. The fact remains that I've provided links that confirm what I've said throughout this thread - whether you or anybody else likes it or not; either way I couldn't care less.
        • Mike, ad homs, fallacies and personal attacks are never good arguments as it merely demonstrates the weakness of your own position since you clearly have absolutely nothing to offer. If you don't like this thread feel free to ignore it as nobody is twisting your arm forcing you to post here. The fact remains that I've provided links that confirm what I've said throughout this thread - whether you or anybody else likes it or not; either way I couldn't care less.

          Another point that has been confirmed here is that some survivalists and 'end timers' are utter wacko's.
        • Mike, ad homs, fallacies and personal attacks are never good arguments as it merely demonstrates the weakness of your own position since you clearly have absolutely nothing to offer. If you don't like this thread feel free to ignore it as nobody is twisting your arm forcing you to post here. The fact remains that I've provided links that confirm what I've said throughout this thread - whether you or anybody else likes it or not; either way I couldn't care less.

          Another point that has been confirmed here is that some survivalists and 'end timers' are complete wacko's.
    • it may be declining right now, but the moment the world economy or civilization collapses
      or 5 minutes after some horrendous disaster strikes, people will be calling
      out their particular deity's name and promising their firstborn's life for salvation
      how many times have you done it when the chips were down?
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        What Rocky keep missing while he's scolding Mike about insults while calling people 'wackos' in the same breath, is that while the percentages support his argument, the absolute numbers don't. There are in fact, more religious people on the earth today, than 100 years ago.
        • And more every day.

          Lefties use the same logic to say Obama is the least spending president in the past 20 years.... Because while all the others have raised the budget over their terms, he lowered the annual budget by 1.5% WHAT? Yes, folks, he LOWERED our national spending budget during his term.

          Nevermind it had just gone up a whopping 16% the year he took office, as a one-time emergency measure, and 1.5% less than that is STILL an unsustainably extravagant level of spending.

          Kind of like if your wife takes out a second mortgage on the house to cover a medical emergency to save the life of your child. Then, for four years after that, you take out loans for 1.5% less than your home equity, year after year on a sustained basis because hey.... it's still less spending per-year than that one time, right? So you're being fiscally responsible!

          Percentages vs. absolute numbers.

          Only liars and whackos try to pass off the one for the other.
          • How did we get from the religious topic, to Obama bashing ?

            I think,
            A; The rapture will have occurred, leaving only the "heathens " behind.
            B; The rapture doesn't happen, and many Christians are disillusioned, and turn to Judaism, and clown worship.
            C; The post apocalyptic doomsday cults will all gather on the mountain and say, "I thought you were bringing the Kool aid !"
            D; The mother ship comes back, (Finally !!)
            E; The Jehovah's Witness will have a Kingdom Hall, build/picnic. Then knock on any doors left standing, over, and over, and over....
            G; Tom Cruse will jump off of the sofa, and lead the Scientologest back to where they came from.
            E; Th Mormons will say, "Don't blame me, I voted for the other guy!"
            Or F; Unprepared survivors will join the, "First Church of Contortion", and kiss their ass goodby.
        • <What Rocky keep missing while he's scolding Mike about insults while calling people 'wackos' in the same breath>

          Indeed, people who rigidly cling to revisionist religious views and looney 'end times' crap despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary can be wacko's like some right here in this very thread have shown. Would you prefer insane?

          <There are in fact, more religious people on the earth today, than 100 years ago. >

          Straw man fallacy, I made no mention of that. The fact remains that religion is on a major decline and there's nothing you can do about that fact.
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            Its NOT a straw man at all.

            You said religion is on the decline. That is false. The amount of religious people on earth are INCREASING. That's the opposite of a decline.


            A valid truthful statement, if you were interested in that, would be 'the percentage of religious people on the earth today is in decline"

            To try and explain in terms you might understand:

            If you bought a box of lucky charms, and it had 100 marshmallows in it, but your next box was twice as big, but only had 198 marshmallows in it, you could not say 'your marshmallows were in decline'
            • LOL, make it up however you need to to make yourself feel better but, your beliefs are false:

              The State of Religion: Declining Belief in God Worldwide

              "Two recent studies released almost simultaneously provide more hard evidence that religion is slowly losing its grip on humanity, even in the United States.

              First, a report from the University of Chicago called “Belief About God Across Time and Countries” looked at survey data from 30 countries, reaching as far back as 1991. While many of the news stories about this report focused on figures showing a tendency for numbers of religious believers to increase with age, the figures also showed the overall percentage of religious believers declined in most countries...."

              www.americanhumanist.org/HNN/d...worldw

              Lying about it is not helping you; in fact you lost credibility a long time ago. Your "wackiness" has revealed itself repeatedly throughout this thread.
          • Rocky,
            What do you mean by, "revisionist religious views" ? A 'revisionist ' is someone who wants to change doctrine, not "rigidly cling" to it. It would seem to be a self contradicting statement.
            Aren't you here, in this Tribe because you have some concept of the "end times", AKA,... SHTF, global catastrophe, Zombie Apocalypse ?

            I think it is important to note the difference between "religion' and 'spirituality'. Religion refers to an organization, spirituality refers to a life style in view of personal beliefs. Many people are taking a more spiritual approach to life, and leaving dogmatic religion behind. So that distinction is important in judging the moral compass of our society. And I believe that is the crux of this thread.

            Whether being religious, or spiritual, or even if you don't draw a distinction, why should you, or anyone for that matter slam them for trying to do what they think is the right thing?
            Is it insane, or wacko, to help the poor with food banks, to feed and council the homeless, many of whom are Vets.? Or work as a church group and repair homes for the elderly ?
            If you don't agree with someones views, or how the try to have a positive effect on humanity, why not just do your own thing to the same end ? Why do you feel the need to berate them, based solely on their religious views? Are they doing anything to harm you ?
  • From the Christian Science Monitor:

    Atheism on the rise around the globe

    "According to a new poll, religiosity worldwide is declining while more people say they are atheists. In the United States, a growing number consider themselves non-believers......."

    www.csmonitor.com/World/Glo...-the-globe

    ;
    • Christian Science Monitor eh...LMFAO
      • I like the part where Rocky makes this his White Whale. He keeps driving at this so hard, it's like he honestly thinks his world will be complete and healed in some way if he can just convince people that 'religion' (and by religion he specifically means christianity, I haven't seen any stabs at Islam or Shinto yet) is going the way of the buffalo.

        Keep it up, rocky. I'm *almost* convinced. You gotta exorcise the jesus outa me. THE POWER OF ROCKY COMPELLS YOU!!!
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        beast - CSM is a highly respected news source.

        But once again, Rocky keeps forgetting that percentages don't reflect actual numbers. Nor does whats going on now, when things are fairly good, reflect what might happen when tshtf. People have always returned to religion in times of stress and hardship.
        • I can't tell you how many 'atheists' I have known who ask everyone to pray for them the moment they discover that they have a major health problem or a need for surgery, or find themselves suddenly in a high-risk situation.

          Lots of non-religious people find God at the end of their rope. It's in our nature to be 'lifted up in pride' and forget God when things are going relatively well, and then when shit goes down, we all start praying and make fervent efforts to do whatever we know of which could possibly appease whichever God we worship. We go to church, obey all the rules, make sacrifices or pay homage. It's as true of people today as it was for the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Aztecs, and every other individual homo-sapien who has walked the earth and believed in any power greater than Man.
          • aint that kinda what i said earlier?
            • Yes Beast, you said it and I'll say it too.

              When you feel that you're all alone and so deep in the shit that you can't see a way out you'll pray to god (whatever faith) no matter how many times you've denied him.

              It's human nature.
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                I disagree - I'm agnostic - I full accept the possibility of a higher power.

                I didn't pray when I was deep in the shit - there are atheists in foxholes.
                • I appologise '.' , of course it is your right to seek proof. Many religious people question thier faith at some point in thier lives, some lose thier faith and some reaffirm it. I hope one day you'll find the proof that you require.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
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                    I don't need proof - I need Faith.

                    I don't have it.

                    If God wanted me to have it, he'd give me Grace, right?
                    • I wish I knew all the answers '.' because I would love to be able to help you out with this question. I really hope you find the faith that you're looking for, at least it seems you're willing to look.
                      It may not make much sense to anyone else but I see God when I look at the world around me, both in the land and in other people (ugly evil people... yet even they're capable of showing more grace than I could imagine.) If you're looking for God's grace they're two good places to start.
                      It'll happen when it happens.
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                        Well I do appreciate it, Mike, and I hope so too.

                        I've definitely looked - both my parents are non-religious, but I was brought up to explore religion from a young age. I grew up going to services of all creeds, from Church of Christ to Mosque, from Mass to Shinto Temples.

                        I figure if 'God' wants me, he knows where to find me.

                        I think it would be great to have the peace of mind and the serenity that comes with full faith in a spiritual paradigm.
                        • 'faith' is a gift of the spirit. There are several gifts of the spirit referred to in scripture. Everyone has at least one gift. Some have many. Others have just one. The gift of tongues, the gift of healing, the gift of faith. The gift of the interpretation of tongues, the gift of discernment, the list goes on. Ever notice how some doctors just have this great talent, instinct, intuition for making people well? Or how some folks are such a whiz at languages? Or some people are really good at reading others, discerning their intentions, strengths, weaknesses?

                          Essentially, they are 'talents' given to us by God. They are to help us through life, but they are also tools to help us, to help others, which is really the main point of it all.

                          There is a parable in the bible about these talents. That a master gave his servants each talents. to some he gave one, to some he gave five, or ten. (a 'talent' was a measure of money long before we began to use the word to denote a gift of innate skill, and it is because of this parable about money, used as a metaphor for skill) He left each servant for a time. Then came a day of reckoning. He expected each servant to have invested his 'talents' wisely to increase his holdings. He expected them to bring more talents back to him. God expects us to use our talents to bring others, and their talents, back to him. Our talents are for helping each other get home.

                          But as the parable makes clear, we are accountable for each talent we are given. If we don't use our talents, as some did not so in the parable, we will be judged negatively. So a loving God would only give us those talents which we, individually, can make good use of, and can be held accountable for.

                          It might be a great blessing to not have the gift of 'faith' and to not be accountable for all that it entails to your behavior, your responsability of leadership in faith toward others. Depending on your personality, a 'talent' can be a great gift and a help, or it can be a burden and a weight. This is why some of us have faith, and some cannot find it at all. Why some of us are so good at healing, and others have no interest.

                          this concludes your Sunday sermon.
                          • 'Faith' is, " That which is hoped for, but not yet revealed". It is not a gift. Nor is it one of the "Gifts of the spirit". To call it such would imply that God withholds faith from some, and gives it to others.
                            Faith manifest in many ways, you simply accept some things, without trying to understand them, and move on. You have faith that the air you breath will sustain you, unless it's your first visit to a pig farm, then that faith may be shaken !
                            The 'Gifts of the spirit' of which you speak, are bestowed after one becomes filled with the Holy spirit, as the Disciples were at the last supper, and not everyone manifest them.
                            'Speaking in tongues' is the gift of the heavenly prayer language, only known to the speaker, and God. The 'Gift of tongues' , or 'The gift of interpretation' is the the gift of interpreting 'THAT' language for the admonition of everyone else. That is why scripture says, " Tongues, and the gift of tongues" . Neither has anything to do with the the comparative languages of this world.
                            We do all have gifts, or talents, or a certain knack, if you will. And "The Parable of he Talents" is about being a good Steward of what we have, be it abilities, money, or time.

                            >>"It might be a great blessing to not have the gift of 'faith' and to not be accountable for all that it entails to your behavior, your responsability of leadership in faith toward others. Depending on your personality, a 'talent' can be a great gift and a help, or it can be a burden and a weight. This is why some of us have faith, and some cannot find it at all. Why some of us are so good at healing, and others have no interest"<<

                            To be so cynical, to lack any faith at all, does not remove your accountability for you behavior ! And a 'Talent ' is not a burden, or weight. Your choosing not to USE that talent for the betterment of humankind, is the weight. Free yourself of THAT restrictive weight, and travel more lightly on your path.
                            Mind you that my clarification of these issues, are not my current spiritual path, they were. But I have come to embrace ones choice to be a good person each day, and have a positive effect on humanity, as being the keys to Heaven, or Nervona, or The Buddha Head, Enlightenment, Valhalla...whatever.
                            There are 10,000 paths to each, and 10,000 doors on each path. Who am I to say any are locked ?
                            • “to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,”
                              – 1 Corinthians 12:9 [emphasis added]

                              Doesn't sound to me like it's a gift to everyone. Sounds like it's a gift for some, and there are gifts for others. So yes, it IS a gift of the spirit, and yes, god DOES give it to some, and not others. This only throws a spanner in your cogs if you believe that everyone has to believe a certain way, do certain things, or be cast into hell. Based on such a narrow understanding of God, and a complete ignorance of His love for us, I can see why anyone would, and any enlightened person should, abandon christianity in search of other spiritual pathways. But you have allowed yourself to become deceived by men in control of those religions, who want that power to control you and your actions. They rudely stepped in as self-proclaimed mediums between you and christ, and you allowed them that privilege. Now your entire understanding of His gospel is slanted, edited, skewed and the truthful intent of it is lost on you.

                              Otherwise, you would see that God can only hold us accountable for the things we have to work with. He will not cast a retard into hell for not being able to understand and accept baptism. He will not condemn a man for something which that man was never taught is wrong behavior. He can likewise not hold some people accountable for a 'faith' based life if he did not endow them with that same faith to begin with. This is a mercy for those people, it allows them to live a certain kind of life which is necessary in this world, necessary to their growth, necessary for the learning, growth, and consideration of others as we explore our choices and define who we are in this life. If you believe in so many paths to enlightenment and so many doorways, why is it so hard for you to accept a broader, more 'spiritual principle' based interpretation of christianity, and not such a narrow, dogmatic, highly 'revised with doctrinally unfounded re-interpretations' version of boxed-in religious control.

                              Your interpretation of 'tongues' is interesting. It is certainly the more commonly accepted interpretation among the confused and controlled christian sects, but it begs the question 'where the hell did that idea even come from?' Since the word 'tongues' in the bible only ever refers to human languages, and Jesus explicitly taught that our prayers should be sacred and private between us and god, using normal language, and NOT made into a huge public display, which is really the only purpose and use of jumping up in the middle of a revival and lashing out with an oral seizure that nobody understands, and the speaker is unable to translate after the fact. There is no 'heavenly language of prayer' and christ never used it. That is another dogmatic invention with no scriptural backing, and the only use of 'holy roller speaking in tongues' is for putting on a public display, not for helping oneself or anyone else. It is to gain the praise of man in a public setting, not to gain any audience with God, who can hear our prayers just fine in any language HE created for our use. Tongues means tongues. It means languages. Any other interpretation is unfounded dogmatic opinion. Show me the scriptural justification for it. Show me a reference to 'tongues' which could not be literally interpreted as the gift of speaking earthly, human languages for the purpose of breaking through the barriers placed on us at the tower of babel, and preaching the gospel to our brothers and sisters in a way they can understand.
                              • If you will read further Paul speaks of the different " tongues'. 1 Cor. 14:2, 1Cor. 14:27-28.
                                Most Pentecostals believe in the active outpouring of the gifts of the spirit, manifest through this "man to God unknown language", miraculous healing, ETC.
                                And while you maintain God gives differently to each, and won't judge them beyond their capacity, you slam the "Holy Rollers" for what they believe, calling them "Confused sects". What If that is what God gave them to work with, what if finding their spirituality through that belief system is what they had to learn ?
                                Who are you to say that ANYONE is wrong, or confused ?
                                You sound angry.
                                In spite of my telling you that I accept all who make a choice of being a good person, and having a positive effect on humanity.
                                You say of me;
                                >>"But you have allowed yourself to become deceived by men in control of those religions, who want that power to control you and your actions. They rudely stepped in as self-proclaimed mediums between you and christ, and you allowed them that privilege. Now your entire understanding of His gospel is slanted, edited, skewed and the truthful intent of it is lost on you."<<
                                God has opened many paths of understanding to me, why can't you accept that, and be happy that I harbor no anger, or haterid for others beliefs ?
                                I can't tell if you're being judgmental, supportive, argumentative, helpful, you're all over the place.

                                >>"If you believe in so many paths to enlightenment and so many doorways, why is it so hard for you to , and not such a narrow, dogmatic, highly 'revised with doctrinally unfounded re-interpretations' version of boxed-in religious control."<<
                                I have NO IDEA WHAT YOU"RE TALKING ABOUT ! I tell you what I believe, and you ask why I can't I believe it !?!?
                                You seem to be arguing with yourself. I DO, "accept a broader, more 'spiritual principle' based interpretation of christianity". Along with any other positive spiritual growth ! What don't you get ???
                • you are like me, we depend on ourselves
                  we dont need someone else to blame
                  but theres a whole lot of peeps outthere that cant do that
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Beast, it's not that I'm dependent on my faith in God though it has helped me gain a better perspective on some of my past actions/experiences and helped me to live with them. I don't claim to be better than anyone else because I have faith in god, if anything it helps me to step back and show a little humility sometimes. Serenity is something that I really needed in my life at one point '.' I'm still not sure that I'm there yet..... but I do know that I'm a better person than I would have been otherwise.

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