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Body armor and the 30-06

topic posted Wed, November 26, 2008 - 10:03 PM by  Unsubscribed
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Dragon skin is being touted as the best new Body armor. I have watched several shows on Kevlar and the guy who invented it. My question is this. Does anyone know if there is body armor that will stop a 30-06 round? My thoughts are this. If there were wouldnt the impact force of the bullet break every rib in the guys chest and stop his heart anyway? I doubt that body armor would stop the 308 or 30-06 round but I am not very knowledgable on this subject. My choice of this caliber round is for this very reason. My brother inlaw shoots a 300 Mag from Browning BAR. That is a nasty round. The 30-06 seems to me to be the best all around big game and war round. Your thoughts?
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  • Jon
    Jon
    offline 2
    I have looked at some of the military class 5 stuff and it says right on the tag that it will stop up to 30-06 ball ammo.I just don't want to be the test dummy !With that said the blunt force trauma has got to still be awsome,but better that hot lead I guess.And oh yea the stuff weighs a ton.
  • Unsu...
     
    I am very partial to the 30-06 round. I have a Remington 700 BDL 30-06. It is the military sniper version they once used before changing. It even has "MIL" on the serial number. I hand load my rounds so I can get the full potential of the Hornady 165 gr. I use.

    Now to your question. I went to Pinnacle Armour who sells Dragon Skin body armour. They have a chart there listing the different level of Dragon Skin and what round that level can stop. Here is 2 links. The first one goes to the page dealing with Dragon Skin body armour and the 2nd link goes to the charts.

    www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-ar...skin.php
    www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-ar...hart.php

    During my research on this I also ran across several articles from the military concerning the Dragon Skin body armour. The links below are those articles.

    www.military.com/NewsConte...93,00.html
    channels.netscape.com/pf/story.jsp

    As for my thoughts on body armour. I agree our military personnel who are in the line of fire should have a good reliable body armour. It does save lives. It really doesn't do any good when you have a direct hit from a RPG or a 1000 lbs. IED going off right next to you. Our people need them and should have the best money can buy. Me personally do not see the need for me to own Dragon Skin or any other type of body armour. First, I cannot afford any - 2nd, when the SHTF and all hell breaks loose my tactics WILL NOT be one of the street gangs and city dwellers. Let's see - I have been a hunter since the age of 13 and I am now 53, I have been shooting a rifle or pistol since I was 13 (pretty much every day too - weather permitting), I spent time in the military and received some interesting and very useful training, a 30-06 rifle with custom loads, a Ruger 44 mag carbine, a Mossberg 590 shotgun, a Springfield 1911-A1 45 cal., a Gilleys suit, and did I say I was a hard core hunter. I guess you can get the picture. One shot - one kill! So go wear the high dollar body armour - I haven't seen any facial body armour. Oh yea, does anyone know how long it takes to bleed to death when the femeral artery has been torn apart from a bullet......
    • Unsu...
       
      If the femoral is sheared completely apart close to the groin it will most often times snap up into the abdominal cavity and death will occur is about 30 seconds. If the femoral is only partially damaged and closer to the knee death can take up to 30 minutes. A good hit lower is as stated about 3 minutes.
      Remember when shooting at someone in a prone position that is in body armor with a helmet the ideal target is the tip of the nose.
  • Timberwolf pretty much covered things. I am just going to add a couple of things that I think are important. Kevlar weakens with time, sweat, heat. With that said an old vest is better then no vest. It will slow down and decrees the damage from a gunshot. The vests that are issued to your local police office are rated for handgun rounds. I think .22 will penetrate this body armor. There is a trauma plate that can be placed in the vest that will help against rifle rounds. The trauma plate is not very big and only covers center chest. AS for breaking ribs it depends on the age and health of the person. If I remember my high school physics, the force of the bullet would not be any greater then the force of the but stock against your shoulder. That’s why I laugh when some one in the movies shoots a shotgun and the person who is hit goes flying. If that was the case, the person shooting the shotgun should go flying also. As for it stopping the heart, depends on the impact location and the age/health of the person.
    • Unsu...
       
      A quick side note about .22 and vests. A friend of mine is a local cop and he told me that he doesn't want to see someone point a .22 at him. It WILL penetrate the vests issued to law enforcement officers. Now the SWAT teams and other special teams get the better body armour but the poor old patrolman gets the lower grade stuff.

      I was joking with him one day about his body armour. I told him I am not one to shoot for the chest or stomach, I shoot for the head. He said he was glad that the everyday criminal didn't think like that. He said that most of the time all they are doing is sending as much lead as they can hoping to hit the cops.
      • Unsu...
         
        Wow, I went to the first link and saw the video of 11- 308 rounds and no penetration. That is hard to believe. I guess to defeat that level of body armor one would have to aim at the groin area or head. It would take steel jacketed bullets to go through it. Also the shock didnt look that big on the test dummy. I saw what the 30-06 did to a 150 pound dressed whitetail last week. It is hard to imagine any type of nylon fabrick stopping one of those rounds but hey, there is the video to prove it.

        I too have been a hunter all of my life. I shot the old 30-40 Krag for 20 years until my vision got bad and now have to use a scope to be acurate. The Krag needed a side mount scope and it just would have been too expensive to have it done. I have a Remmington 7400 now in 30-06 My wife has a 740 and we have another 7400 as a spare. I just picked up a used encore single shot 30-06 and will shoot all of the reloads out of that rifle. The 740 and 7400's cant shoot reloads because the casings stick in the chambers and break the ejectors. That is the only draw back to those rifles. So I have to keep lots of factory ammo on hand. The nice thing about 30-06 is that Meijers sells them for 12 to 14 dollars a box this time of year(deer season) . Cabelas sells the good 10 round clips for these rifles as well. Just have to keep them clean unlike an AK 47 that will still shoot full of mud. If it ever comes to any type of war scenario I hope They dont find me.
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      Seem's that a explosion take's the path of least resistense and that all the velocity blown out the end of the barrel would be a greater force than the recoil. I'm not sure though.
  • Second Chance has a great video,its about 6 hours long, but it goes into body armor and effects of different rounds. I have not looked at it years, close to 10 or more. If you have the money it is worth it.
    www.secondchance.com/home.asp
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      I am not thinking of buying any. I was just looking for some data on whether or not Armor could stop my 30-06 rounds. It looks like hi tec Dragon Skin can. It stopped 11-- 308 rounds with zero penetration. That is amazing. If the goon squad was wearing that crap you would have to shoot for the groin or head or use steel jacketed slugs. I am not sure if there are steel jacketed slugs available for the 30-06. Not much sense shooting at some guy wearing Dragon Skin unless you want to die. It is pretty hard to make a head or groin shot on a guy moving fast behind cover fire. Let us hope we never have to fight against guys wearing top of the line Dragon Skin. Michael
      • Look for old mil surpuls ammo in 30.06. Also The Second Chance video was for the education purpose, not because I thought you wanted to by body armor.
        • Unsu...
           
          bulletproofme.com/

          THIS IS the best online resource for education on getting your hands on body armor and selection of body armor type. It is also one of the cheapest places to buy body armor. They sell police surplus for dirt-cheap as well, and they sell the older vests for $25 bucks (not for life saving purposes) just so you can shoot the old stuff yourself and see how it handles different projectiles. (it's actually perfectly suitable for lifesaving, as evidenced by performance testing, but for legal reasons they cannot sell it for life-saving purposes as they are rated according to a standard rating procedure which is no longer used in america)

          That said, 30-06 is a tough round to stop. In WWII, I'm under the impression that 30-06, 8mm Mauser, and .303 were considered pretty comparable, with only a slight edge (a hundred fifty fps at same bullet weight) going in favor of the Mauser.

          I have mauser surplus in 147 grain 'ball' and 190 grain boat tail for use in the luftwaffe fighter guns (it's a considerably beefed up charge, favored by snipers of the wermacht. The shells often stick in the chamber (at least in my crappy gun), and kick noticeably harder) I would imagine the 190 grainers are a tough contender for any body armor out there. They're not specifically 'armor piercing' though.

          I'm not sure where the 7.62X54R fits into the mix, but looks very comparable and has been stopped many times by the armor our troops carry into the sandbox.
          • Jim
            Jim
            offline 2
            Wearing "armor" isn't just for the bullets that hit you. There's all kinds of things flying around that hurt. ...Ricochettes, bits of glass, rock fragments and pieces of brick. Getting shot at can be very interesting, with things coming from odd angles. Wearing something is better than not. It may not stop an '06, but it helps with the shrapnel.
            • Unsu...
               
              Well you know my post was asking for information. lOTS OF GREAT LINKS. I see where the 308 got stopped 11 times. I think it would take a pretty hard jacketed round to penetrate dragon skin. I shoot the 30-06 and will be ready when I see an adversary wearing body armor. I think a full metal jacketed 180 will do the trick. If not Ill cut his legs in half. The survivalist must be able to define any situation he faces. Waste a shot to the midsection into an armor vest and you might be dead. Not many people will be wearing Dragon Skin any way and most of the older stuff will not stop the 30-06 any way.
              • Not only that, but the dragon skin will break down over time, just like lexan or kevlar, they have a shelf life that can be shortened by sun or heat.

                I figure that if I hit them with my 45-70, vest or not they're getting knocked down.(yet a 45-70 is not fast enough to detonate Tannerite.)
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                  I've taken a real shine to the harrington and richardson break-open single shot designs.... They make a .45-70 'buffalo gun' that I would thoroughly enjoy and could definitely afford.

                  That is another approach to the body armor conundrum. You just can't take a 45-70 standing, and still be standing after the bullet has stopped. It doesn't matter if it stops on your vest or in your chest, that's a wrecking-ball of force to absorb. Limited range, though.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    My little H&R single shot was only 210.00 bucks new. You can buy barrels for 110.00. I put a simmons wide angle 3 by 9 power scope on it. 200 yards with 125 power points 3 inch groups off a rest. 5 to 6 inch free hand. Its as good as my Remmingtons. The nice thing about it is I reuse all my brass from the semi autos for the H&R. I know it will reach out there 400 yards as well.
                    • Unsu...
                       
                      When I first learned about H&R i thought they were second-rate, cheap pot-metal guns at throw-away prices.

                      Then I 'inherited' a 20 gauge single shot, and started looking into it more. And i realized that i really like those guys. Their business model is one of making simple, reliable firearms that are cheap enough to put one in every home on any income. What a patriotic American philosophy. They are accurate, simple, rugged, and well made. They're not particularly pretty, nor will their name command any kind of resale price. But that's kind of the point. Cheap. All the money goes into the function and reliability, nothing into brand-names or fancy finish. And they're American made. I've looked all over online owner reviews and haven't found a black spot or bad opinion yet.
                      • Thousand, Yahoo Groups has a place just for the H&R. They have their own little cult going on. My youngest daughter has one in .223 for coyote hunting. The only problem we ever had with it was sticky extraction of fired rounds. The chambers are not exactly perfect on these rifles. The problem was fixed by polishing the chamber with Flitz. You can't put a rifle barrel on a shotgun frame. The barrels have to be fitted at the factory. I would not go so far as to say they are as good as my Remingtons.
                        • Unsu...
                           
                          What I ment was the little single shot is as acuate as my Remmingtons. Now the Remmington 740 and 7400 is not the most acurate rifle in 30-06 . There4 are many rifles that will shoot much more acurate but both are fine with me. I needed a cheap survival 30-06 that woul;d shoot all my reloads and I cant do that with the 740's or 7400's . Without perfect resizing of the casings both model Rems will break the shell extractors because the cases stick in the chambers.

                          I have been told by three different Gunsmiths that if I stick with factory loads my Remmingtons will last longer than me but Ill break one if I #1 fail to clean them and #2 shoot reloads. I hate to toss the brass so I picked up the H&R single shot. It was less than half what they wanted for an Encore. The Encore may be a little more acurate but in my book no Single shot rifle is worth 600 bucks.
                          • I probably have more guns than a man really needs, but I have been collecting them for over 40 years. I bought the H&R for my daughter when she first expressed a desire to hunt with me. I am a fan of single shot rifle for hunting. It is a personal preferance for myself. I have Ruger#1's, Encores, a Ruger#3, a couple of the H&R's. I like them all. I like my Remington 700's also. With the exception of my custom Encore's the single shots do not compare in accuracy with the 700's. They all have acceptable hunting accuracy.
                            • Unsu...
                               
                              If I may~
                              Rather than start a new thread, please pardon the drift and permit me to post this here:

                              My roommate went and purchased herself a groovy 12 g Mossberg today. The store was half empty of inventory and full of shoppers. The proprietor told her folks are BUYIN' GUNS LIKE CRAZY. Even the little ole lady standing next to her at the counter said 'Now's the time!'

                              Here in the Steel City there's a big brew-yee-ha about the city passing a shiny, new gun law.
                              www.thepittsburghchannel.com/new...html
                              ('Cause all the bad guys adhere to and abide by The Law, doncha' know...)

                              Anyone have links or info concerning the rumored new "ammo tax"?


                              Back to your regularly scheduled body armor banter.
                              I prefer chain mail, myself.
                              • Unsu...
                                 
                                Mali, I have not heard of any ammo tax on the books anywhere. A holes like Moynihan Were pushing that crap back during the Clinton Years. Now with Hillary in Moynihans senate seat We will have to see who replaces her as she moves into the Obama team. Gun sales are up since november 4th. I tried to get a mini 14 or any opther rifle that would take 30 round clips and was not surprised to find out that no one had any left by the 10th of november. Springfield and Ruger are both out of semi auto rifles . The fear is a return to the Clinton Gun Ban . This has manufacturers frozen on production as they dont want to get caught with high inventories of Illegal weapons. We were forced to buy several Remmington semi automatic rifles instead. Only 10 round clips available for them but hey the Garrand only held 8 and was the weapon of choice during the second world war. Yes Yes, Get your guns while you can. I am suprised that companies like Ruger are not ramming them out the doors right now . The demand is very high.
                                • I don't think that Obama has actually said that he would raise taxes on ammo. Most of the speculation right now that I have heard is he is going to be to busy dealing with the economy and the middle east to be able to mess with the Second Ammendment. Yes, Sem-Auto's are getting scarce and have gone up in price. If you can't find them in the gun shops, the auction sites on the web has them.
                                  • Unsu...
                                     
                                    every gun store I've checked out in utah has at least a couple mini-14's in stock. AR15's are also abound, although more scarce than usual.

                                    previously, gun stores had an inventory of ten or more AR15's in different configurations. Now they have four or five.